BDSM isn't about sex and I keep getting this wrong

[Deleted Member]

I've been staring at these thoughts all day. Donny said, write a post about that. But I'm struggling because I think it makes me look weak... again. Because we seem to operate on this assumption that BDSM isn't about feelings. Well, I disagree. 

 

We've gone adrift somewhere and decided that kink is about sex. We start things up with people, bringing sex into it way too soon. We're a sexy bunch and it's hard not to do that. But once you cross over into that territory, you shut down a whole lot of other possibilities. Sometimes it's the possibility of something more beautiful developing between two people, whether that's something that's going to remain platonic or become sexual/emotional later. 

 

I think this is true of stepping into a dynamic too quickly, too. Once you mark the power lines, it shuts down the communication that really has to stay open until you know each other better. I've messed this up many times myself.  

 

There've been a few other posts about this stuff this week.  I think we need to look back to the Old School traditions of what BDSM was and where it's come from. Entering into a dynamic wasn't something to be taken lightly. Months of exploration and consideration were conducted before a submissive was collared by a Dominant. Can we just slow the fuck down a little bit and work this out?  

 

Otherwise we're just treating people as kink delivery systems and sex objects, and I think there's a fundamental dishonesty to that. I know that's what some people want. But I also know a lot of people claim they're OK with it and then when the sex ends, they're not OK with it. What do you think?  

 

Another friend told me I was letting the insignificant things become too important. I don't agree. People's feelings are not insignificant. 

[ey****]

I feel sex and kink can have a very interesting relationship with each other

I think it's moreso that kink, fetish, BDSM, etc. aren't *always* about sex.  

And it is working out where the lines are.   Sometimes the lines are clear and stuck to. Sometimes they are not clear; or exceptions manifest.

My attitude to sex in kink is that I do not wish to miss out on play, relationships, experiences, so on, that I would otherwise enjoy because the other person has a boundary that says we won't have sex.   Whilst, similarly, being people I would potentially very happily have sex with.

Then the question of what *actually* constitutes as sex, whether we are just talking PIV - or whether other activities can also constitute as sex.  Or, if after play or meeting one or both people involved have to run off and masturbate.   

There are of course those where sex isn't on their mind at all - and this can be people of either side of the slash.  That certain activities are done because they are, to them, fun rather than sexual.  But could still be sexual to the other person.   And this is regardless of whether we're talking about fucking someone with a strap on or caning someone til they bleed.

-

I think there's lots of questions and lots of boundaries.   I've come across potential scenarios that would make me uncomfortable.  For a straw argument; imagine being one of a few subs to a Dominant and you discover they are having a relationship that is also sexual with another sub that you're supposed to be on a generally even footing with.  The situation can become impossible.   

[Kriss123]

It's good that you admit you are wrong.Its a rare quality these days..Good on you

[ReddRabbit]

There have been situations in which it’s not about sex at all for me, and yet it’s sexual/sensual on another level.  But the emotional state of any sub I work with, whether on a professional level or not, is always a consideration for me.  

It’s funny, stumbling across your post -  because I was just writing about a particular time in which things became sexual between a sub and myself. It was a real struggle for me to cross that line, because it was something I had a hard and fast rule about up until that point. But, the sexual attraction was too intense, and so we needed to find a way to work with it.  

BDSM can, ultimately, be about a wide range of things - over the years I’ve learned to incorporate many things into my view of how it all works. I’ve grown a lot within the structure.  Starting out as a sub, working my way into Dommeing, working with subs and knowing that tending to the emotional side is just as important as all the rest.  We are, after all, all humans here, searching for something within these Play sessions. 

[Catalyst87]

👏👏👏 Well put! I agree that many people come onto this site thinking, as discussed with Donny, there are easy targets. You can tell straight way who they are. It may just be a case of different strokes. Plenty of vanilla people are into hook ups over meaningful encounters

[Deleted Member]

Personally, I can have sex with someone relatively quickly, but entering into any kind of BDSM dynamic is a much slower process. Maybe that's just because I take the sub role; I can't place my mental and physical wellbeing into the hands of someone who doesn't know me reasonably well. If they can't read my reactions, and I can't speak (and I often can't in such situations), then it's going to end in tears. And not good tears.

[Deleted Member]

I met my submissive 8 months ago, and see each other 2 to 3 times a week. We started with a collar during play, and only after 5 months did we progress to a permanent 24/7 collar which she chose. It takes time to know if the other is the One for you, and it felt right at that moment, for us.

[Goldenrich]

I totally agree with you, it seems to be rush rush hurry hurry, I agree with you about the old school way well done I like your thoughts

[Deleted Member]

And of course, it depends on what is classified as “sex”, doesn’t it? Famously, Bill Clinton insisted that he “did not have sexual relations with that woman”. But there was clearly some activity that most people would consider to be sexual. Does play have to involve the genitalia to be sexual? Is it not sex if no penetration occurs? What about anal fisting, where no genitalia is involved, but sexual responses can occur in either or both parties to the act, is this BDSM, or sex, or both? And we all know that BDSM does not have to involve sex...

My point is that sadly, we seem to need to compartmentalise, to label and categorise our kinks, desires and activities. Why? Can we not just “go with the flow?” Take it a step at a time? A well respected member of this site once said they had two primary considerations in any encounter: Firstly, is it safe? Secondly, are we both having fun? Applying these rules may give some perspective.

It’s also been said before that we live in an instant world where so many people want and expect instant gratification and instant results. The “dial a shag” mentality. We used to write letters and spend a long time getting to know someone before encounters occurred. Sadly no longer, it seems. The current lockdown situation has ***d people to spend a bit more time getting to know each other by other means before committing to a physical encounter and in my opinion, based upon my experience, that can only be a good thing...

 

 

[Deleted Member]

11 hours ago, MsWhiteRose said:

I've been staring at these thoughts all day. Donny said, write a post about that. But I'm struggling because I think it makes me look weak... again. Because we seem to operate on this assumption that BDSM isn't about feelings. Well, I disagree. 

 

We've gone adrift somewhere and decided that kink is about sex. We start things up with people, bringing sex into it way too soon. We're a sexy bunch and it's hard not to do that. But once you cross over into that territory, you shut down a whole lot of other possibilities. Sometimes it's the possibility of something more beautiful developing between two people, whether that's something that's going to remain platonic or become sexual/emotional later. 

 

I think this is true of stepping into a dynamic too quickly, too. Once you mark the power lines, it shuts down the communication that really has to stay open until you know each other better. I've messed this up many times myself.  

 

There've been a few other posts about this stuff this week.  I think we need to look back to the Old School traditions of what BDSM was and where it's come from. Entering into a dynamic wasn't something to be taken lightly. Months of exploration and consideration were conducted before a submissive was collared by a Dominant. Can we just slow the fuck down a little bit and work this out?  

 

Otherwise we're just treating people as kink delivery systems and sex objects, and I think there's a fundamental dishonesty to that. I know that's what some people want. But I also know a lot of people claim they're OK with it and then when the sex ends, they're not OK with it. What do you think?  

 

Another friend told me I was letting the insignificant things become too important. I don't agree. People's feelings are not insignificant. 

We start with an important point @MsWhiteRose, you are concerned about breaching a subject because you feel it makes you look "weak".  This is something I've struggled with since day 1, an admittance on a public forum of my gentler side yet at the same time I claim to be a "Dom" . Should I reveal this, will it cut possible matches off, make me look soft. With help and advice I came to realise how would I find the one I seek unless I am me.  Here we have a huge issue as many hide behind a mask, represent themselves a certain way for *** of revealing what they truly are but again how do we find happiness when we can't even admit the truth of what we are and what we feel to ourselves? No I reject that, you are not weak you are strong.  You have the backbone to admit to yourself and others the truth of who you are and that says "This is me, this is what I am" you interested? Great come say hello, you're not interested great move on and good luck to you.

 

One of the reasons I first made the  move and took the plunge into this world was a misguided belief that kink would carry less emotion, it would be much more about the physical.  Surely this is an easier way to protect myself, less feeling if you like, how wrong I was. Kink is far from just sex only.  I've found in many ways the emotions are actually much more intense, how can they not be considering the connections we make and the things we do? 

 

"Shutting down possibilities" is something that plays a huge part for me, I could not agree more. If we rush Into something, a dynamic/arrangement (which i am guilty of) we shackle ourselves in some ways, restrict how  we can interact. The base protocols of kink  come into play and for some those ridgid rules must be followed at all times but then are we actually leaning about the human being who's now trapped behind that "label"? I don't think so, we generally only then learn about a certain aspect of that person's character and that is a negative in any relationship. We are all multi faceted and again to find that true happiness we All seek surely the more we know of each other the easier that will be. I purposely now when chatting  to some try and keep things very vanilla so I can learn as much a possible about that aspect of character before we move in to the darker things we enjoy. There is plenty of time for that and in this instance knowledge really is power. " Slowing"  down, taking our time a little more, being vanilla and learning would benefit us all, much less chance of emotional *** which we all know is the worst type.

 

Sex, all of it be it hard or soft, intimate or rough can unless agreed as NSA change everything. As sexual creatures we crave it in all its different forms, we chase it down blindly sometimes without real though of how once Done it can change everything, ruin what could be a good solid friendship. This is one of the reasons I keep at times those I really like at arms length, so as not to ruin something good, to be sure before I take that risk, not wanting to lose what I already have, something real that already has foundations  over something that is temporary, lasts only a relatively short time. Is it worth it for a few moments of physical pleasure?  No I'm starting to really see it's not, patience, be sure and only then take that step.

 

Your last point about people's "feelings" being insignificant has caught me slightly. People's feelings are the most important aspect of Interaction and the sooner we all realise this and think about that before we "touch" the saner and happier we will be. Feelings are everything be they physical or emotion but it's the emotional aspect of our actions we need to focus on, with that we would all be a much happier group.

[Deleted Member]

2 hours ago, Fredddy said:

And of course, it depends on what is classified as “sex”, doesn’t it? Famously, Bill Clinton insisted that he “did not have sexual relations with that woman”. But there was clearly some activity that most people would consider to be sexual. Does play have to involve the genitalia to be sexual? Is it not sex if no penetration occurs? What about anal fisting, where no genitalia is involved, but sexual responses can occur in either or both parties to the act, is this BDSM, or sex, or both? And we all know that BDSM does not have to involve sex...

My point is that sadly, we seem to need to compartmentalise, to label and categorise our kinks, desires and activities. Why? Can we not just “go with the flow?” Take it a step at a time? A well respected member of this site once said they had two primary considerations in any encounter: Firstly, is it safe? Secondly, are we both having fun? Applying these rules may give some perspective.

It’s also been said before that we live in an instant world where so many people want and expect instant gratification and instant results. The “dial a shag” mentality. We used to write letters and spend a long time getting to know someone before encounters occurred. Sadly no longer, it seems. The current lockdown situation has ***d people to spend a bit more time getting to know each other by other means before committing to a physical encounter and in my opinion, based upon my experience, that can only be a good thing...

 

 

The “dial a shag” mentality. We used to write letters and spend a long time getting to know someone before encounters occurred. Sadly no longer, it seems

 

And there in a few words is the key.  We are in such a rush nowadays for a quick physical fix we blindly forget what really matters.

[Deleted Member]

I'm asexual with 0% interest in sex, but I love kink :) You're not alone.

[Ky****]

I'm not really surprised at the focus on sex I mean lets face it most of how BDSM is presented represents sexual potential or imagery.  The whole image of submission is packed full of it.  Think what is the most used image, someone bent over having their bottom punished, given that this is a common sexual position a focus on sex is unsurprising.  The same with most fetish garments they draw attention to the sexual availability of the wearer.

There is also the wider message that societal norms have accustomed us too.  The dominant, particularly a male one, is always seen as the stand in for the hero and in most of the entertainment we grow up with the submissive one always succumbs to the sexual desires of the hero-James Bond etc spring to mind as do films like the Assassination Bureau where the heroine tells the hero that 'surrender isn't defeat if you're a woman', which is her way of agreeing to have sex with him.  So given this sort of pre-programming it isn't really surprising that we tend to emphasise sex in kink. 

In part I wonder whether its also related to some getting into kink because they have been conditioned to think of it as a form of prostitution, even when it isn't on a commercial basis there is often the imagery of prostitution involved.  Confession time my fellow subs-how often do we use this when talking to dominants? call me a whore etc and how often do we do it far too early?  indeed we often describe fantasies of being a prostitute. Given this approach it again leads to a focus on sex.

Finally, are we in kink really that different to vanilla? again how many people go on first date with the hope of getting lucky at the end.  So maybe the reason we've forgotten about the need for a relationship rather than just jumping into bed, after a good caning of course, is that's what 'normal' people do, without the whips and chains-or at least without admitting to them.

[Carnelian2]

First of all, people are not "weak" for admitting that they don't know everything. Rather the opposite. I would even say that those that project themselves as experts in topics they know very little about, are weak as they do not have the strength to admit that, well, they do not have all the answers.

Are relationships about sex? or is sex an aspect of the relationship? Can there be a sexual connection without having physical relations?

BDSM has a dynamic, that is clear. There are roles that people feel at home in. This is clear, and of course has to be agreed up front. However, once we start to think that those roles somehow define us as people, we are off on a tangent - in my humble opinion. You might disagree and that is fine - as I am sure none of us have the answer to this

... but then, in a vanilla relationship, there is a role definition as well,  it may just be subtle.

I kind of like the array of roles available to us, but again, those do not define us.

As a slight aside, I did the Myers-Briggs personality test a couple of weeks ago, and even if it defined me as somewhat introspective and reflective, it actually came out borderline for most things, which means that I can be assertive when I have to be amongst other things.

The point is that although we may fit into a certain role most of the time, this also changes, and that is where the beauty of getting to know someone for real comes in, and yes, not to rush things.

I watched the 2012 movie "Think like a man" last night on Netflix. It is a fun movie, but one of the practices was this idea of getting to know your potential partner for 90 days before starting physical relations. Not a bad idea, but then it depends on what you are looking for

 

[Catalyst87]

15 hours ago, LucyLoosely said:

I can't place my mental and physical wellbeing into the hands of someone who doesn't know me reasonably well. If they can't read my reactions, and I can't speak (and I often can't in such situations), then it's going to end in tears. And not good tears.

I have a lot of frustration with people who don't understand this very simple thing

[Catalyst87]

I can't help feeling that these people who are so intent on novelty and quick fixes... Are trying desperately to bandage a wound that needs much more sophisticated treatment. 

I'm not judging, I've been there, I think most people have. But it's sad that instead on sitting with their own issues, they choose to try to make others feel worthless beyond what sexual gratification they can offer. 

[Leisa]

You always help me out more than you know. 

[Deleted Member]

I agree with everything you said here.

[ey****]

just as a side note/thought

A Pro Domme I'm aware of caused quite a stir when it was revealed she was *sometimes* having sex with clients.  There's a lot of ideas I sometimes find interesting; I could go to a Full Service Sex Worker and ask for Domination AND sex - but I couldn't approach a Domme for sex.  However, a lot of this is boundaries; which are fine - and assorted ideas.

Said person - I don't feel she had to justify herself - but - she kinda did in the lines of that if she is aroused and the client is also aroused - and they agree to intercourse as two consenting adults : effectively, using the client for sex was most certainly a form of Domination.

There was some stuff within this I felt complex.  She went on record to say the only way to make sure this didn't happen was to either specifically request it or specifically express no - which did ask the question in my head of how do I communicate this is OK, should she wish to do it?   She might assume that being married this would not be possible.  It becomes another communication complexity.

[Su****]

Really interesting thoughts and comments here and coming from a newbie whose made that mistake of jumping into sexting or online page too quickly, I couldn't agree more with the OP. Lucky to have been welcomed into an online community and tmake some friends online! The more I'm learning about Femdom and BDSM, the more interested and curious I am becoming in it all. There is so much more too a Domme/Sub relationship I didnt even realize and if im not mistaken I wasnt alone in that ignorance (for lack of a better word).

Edited April 26, 2020 by SubWhoLovesGloves
added a detail

[Deleted Member]

On 4/25/2020 at 4:47 PM, MsWhiteRose said:

But I'm struggling because I think it makes me look weak..

maybe you overthinking too much. 

ok bdsm not always sexual ( I guess you are talking about physically?) plenty of dynamics with no sexual contact between partners.

Kink is by definition about sex. I don't think going sexual at the start would stop doing other things. `May as well get that sorted from the start and concentrated on other part of the dynamics. 

Old school? waiting months for what purpose? I think we all are adult and intelligent enough to decide if we are compatible and could work nicely on the lasting relationship. Most of my connections were made within a month and relationship last long enough. 

Some online subs like to just having a Dom a week or vice versa. Its a free world and people should be able to chose their own way of bdsm/kink. I am not into policing or dynamic shaming. 

But you are right to say some will be hurt mentally if they chose for the instant dynamics... 

[Deleted Member]

4 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

A Pro Domme I'm aware of caused quite a stir

I would have thought she entitled to do whatever she decide. unless there is a law book about pro domming? 

But I guess its very rare case....

[ey****]

2 minutes ago, FabSeverus said:

I would have thought she entitled to do whatever she decide. unless there is a law book about pro domming? 

But I guess its very rare case....

yep - absolutely.  those criticising her possibly blissfully ignorant that they're effectively policing  her body.

[Deleted Member]

8 hours ago, TheAlphaSub said:

I have a lot of frustration with people who don't understand this very simple thing

You are a gem. I appreciate your comments in the forum recently. Thank you. 

[Catalyst87]

3 minutes ago, MsWhiteRose said:

You are a gem. I appreciate your comments in the forum recently. Thank you. 

*blush

Thank you