ey**** Posted July 10 7 minutes ago, ManchesterDom98 said: Once consent has been given it can me immediately withdraw once the submissive feels uncomfortable or unsafe and the scene will stop. How do you know the submissive feels uncomfortable or unsafe? I mean, I know you're going to say "uses safeword/signal" And in a text book scene, the submissive will say red, drop the ball, etc and the Dominant will stop. But scenes aren't played out in text book. Firstly, if the submissive does do this, and the Dominant is aware - obviously in the text book scenario the Dominant can stop. But what if they don't? Is the submissive in control here and able to stop the scene? Especially if tied down or up? If in subspace or weak? So, OK - what if the Dominant doesn't hear, or misses the signal - genuine mistake - all the above same applies. But then there are more scenarios. For example, if the sub feels too deep/weak in scene they cannot use their safeword/signal? Then how do they stop the scene? Or actually - for some very basic research. There's an awful lot of scenarios where subs are afraid of using a safeword. Because it might disappoint their Dominant. It might totally end play. They actually don't know how the Dominant will respond - so hold it in. They are not in control. This is where a, ahem, a "true and honest" Dom needs to be able to have control of the situation, to make sure they don't miss a signal. And to be able to keep control of the scene so things do not go too far, even if the submissive didn't use the safeword/signal/etc A general problem that some sneaky Dominants have tried - is start a scene as agreed. And then midway through the scene introduce something that was not pre-discussed. Now in a lot of scenarios, depending on what this is - that can be hot. But in other cases, this might be something the sub might not have agreed to. But they don't say no, they go through with it. Possibly due to subspace. Possibly due to feeling pressured. Possibly because it's a public demo... there was a case in the US where someone was doing just that. But the sub is in control here, right? Nope. And it then gets difficult to prove cos the Dominant will argue "well they could have said no at any time"
CopperKnob Posted July 10 32 minutes ago, ManchesterDom98 said: Again specific to my point. My point was solely based on the submissives, not on what the dominant can or can't do. Obviously if the dominant feels unsafe, insecure or if the submissive asks them to participate in something that is one of their limits. The dominant can withdraw too as is not completely powerless but a dominant is powerless without a submissive. My whole and sole point was based on the Submissives holding the power. There are two roles, dominat and submissive, my point was subjectively focused on Submissives. You wrote "I believe it is the submissives who do hold the power" In response to Thalia's comment "I agree, except for submissives holding the power. The whole point of submitting is giving up power." . The point that several people are trying to make is this: . Any power in a D/s relationship is (we assume) freely given and able to be withdrawn at any time, for any reason or, no reason at all, by either side of the slash. This is otherwise known as : Ethics Consent An *equal* partnership . The only difference is that the s makes a conscious, autonomous decision to give up some of their power for some of the time (because we arent discussing M/s). Therefore, not only does the D have the power I've given them but also the power of their convictions, boundaries and rules. In that moment they have more and in some circumstances, (see Eyem's comment to you) all the power. In contrast the s has little or none.
ge**** Posted July 10 52 minutes ago, ManchesterDom98 said: Again specific to my point. My point was solely based on the submissives, not on what the dominant can or can't do. Obviously if the dominant feels unsafe, insecure or if the submissive asks them to participate in something that is one of their limits. The dominant can withdraw too as is not completely powerless but a dominant is powerless without a submissive. My whole and sole point was based on the Submissives holding the power. There are two roles, dominat and submissive, my point was subjectively focused on Submissives. But the thing is you can't focus on one or the other, as, within the context of a dynamic or a scene, they go together. . Truth of the matter is *neither* dominant or submissive holds the power, they both do - albeit in slightly different ways and to slightly different ends - but the clichéd "sub holds all the power" trope is both inaccurate and ill considered.
Ma**** Posted July 10 48 minutes ago, gemini_man said: But the thing is you can't focus on one or the other, as, within the context of a dynamic or a scene, they go together. . Truth of the matter is *neither* dominant or submissive holds the power, they both do - albeit in slightly different ways and to slightly different ends - but the clichéd "sub holds all the power" trope is both inaccurate and ill considered. Well, that is just my opinion which i am entitled too I'm afraid. I genuinely do believe submissives hold all the power and I will not change that belief for anyone or anything.
Ma**** Posted July 10 1 hour ago, CopperKnob said: You wrote "I believe it is the submissives who do hold the power" In response to Thalia's comment "I agree, except for submissives holding the power. The whole point of submitting is giving up power." . The point that several people are trying to make is this: . Any power in a D/s relationship is (we assume) freely given and able to be withdrawn at any time, for any reason or, no reason at all, by either side of the slash. This is otherwise known as : Ethics Consent An *equal* partnership . The only difference is that the s makes a conscious, autonomous decision to give up some of their power for some of the time (because we arent discussing M/s). Therefore, not only does the D have the power I've given them but also the power of their convictions, boundaries and rules. In that moment they have more and in some circumstances, (see Eyem's comment to you) all the power. In contrast the s has little or none. I did also say it was a transfer of power from one individual to another. It seems like you are beginning to pick and choose what I said, don't do that. Address the full comment in its entirety.
Ma**** Posted July 10 1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said: How do you know the submissive feels uncomfortable or unsafe? I mean, I know you're going to say "uses safeword/signal" And in a text book scene, the submissive will say red, drop the ball, etc and the Dominant will stop. But scenes aren't played out in text book. Firstly, if the submissive does do this, and the Dominant is aware - obviously in the text book scenario the Dominant can stop. But what if they don't? Is the submissive in control here and able to stop the scene? Especially if tied down or up? If in subspace or weak? So, OK - what if the Dominant doesn't hear, or misses the signal - genuine mistake - all the above same applies. But then there are more scenarios. For example, if the sub feels too deep/weak in scene they cannot use their safeword/signal? Then how do they stop the scene? Or actually - for some very basic research. There's an awful lot of scenarios where subs are afraid of using a safeword. Because it might disappoint their Dominant. It might totally end play. They actually don't know how the Dominant will respond - so hold it in. They are not in control. This is where a, ahem, a "true and honest" Dom needs to be able to have control of the situation, to make sure they don't miss a signal. And to be able to keep control of the scene so things do not go too far, even if the submissive didn't use the safeword/signal/etc A general problem that some sneaky Dominants have tried - is start a scene as agreed. And then midway through the scene introduce something that was not pre-discussed. Now in a lot of scenarios, depending on what this is - that can be hot. But in other cases, this might be something the sub might not have agreed to. But they don't say no, they go through with it. Possibly due to subspace. Possibly due to feeling pressured. Possibly because it's a public demo... there was a case in the US where someone was doing just that. But the sub is in control here, right? Nope. And it then gets difficult to prove cos the Dominant will argue "well they could have said no at any time" Yes, but if a submissive feels that uncomfortable and doesn't say anything then is that the dominants fault for not listening to something the submissive didn't say or is that the submissives fault for not speaking up when they should of done. Your point is nuanced.
ge**** Posted July 10 6 minutes ago, ManchesterDom98 said: Well, that is just my opinion which i am entitled too I'm afraid. I genuinely do believe submissives hold all the power and I will not change that belief for anyone or anything. You are of course entitled to your opinion, just as others are to challenge it - not necessarily to change your mind, but to demonstrate to others that there are other views that are perhaps more equitable.
Th**** Posted July 10 (edited) Opinions are just that, opinions, and they can be wrong or even harmful. This isn't even a new conversation, it's one that's been had many times. It's even happening on the larger kink site today even. Again. Edited July 10 by ThaliaV
Ma**** Posted July 10 Just now, ThaliaV said: Opinions are just that, opinions, and they can be wrong or even harmful. Quite right, they can.
CopperKnob Posted July 10 18 minutes ago, ManchesterDom98 said: Yes, but if a submissive feels that uncomfortable and doesn't say anything then is that the dominants fault for not listening to something the submissive didn't say or is that the submissives fault for not speaking up when they should of done. Your point is nuanced. Your point lacks emotional intelligence and awareness of others potential circumstances. . Everything is contextual, whose to say that there isn't CCB within a D/s relationship where the s feels unable to speak up.
CopperKnob Posted July 10 22 minutes ago, ManchesterDom98 said: I did also say it was a transfer of power from one individual to another. It seems like you are beginning to pick and choose what I said, don't do that. Address the full comment in its entirety. Not at all, you've just responded to Gemini saying that it's your opinion that the s hold all the power. If that's the only part that I have a differing opinion on, that's the only part of your opinion that im going to speak on.
Ma**** Posted July 10 3 minutes ago, CopperKnob said: Your point lacks emotional intelligence and awareness of others potential circumstances. . Everything is contextual, whose to say that there isn't CCB within a D/s relationship where the s feels unable to speak up. But my point is true though isnt it? The idea of that to me is disgusting. Why would any dom want to make a submissive feel like they can't speak up. That is very harmful in my opinion. Communication is key, and if one party is unable to communicate then the scene should stop regardless. Communication is a key.
Ma**** Posted July 10 I would never want to make my submissive feel unable to talk to me during a scene. I would feel guilty that she couldn't speak to me. That to me is, is caring and respectful. I'm sorry if you disagree with that
CopperKnob Posted July 10 10 minutes ago, ManchesterDom98 said: But my point is true though isnt it? The idea of that to me is disgusting. Why would any dom want to make a submissive feel like they can't speak up. That is very harmful in my opinion. Communication is key, and if one party is unable to communicate then the scene should stop regardless. Communication is a key. Your point that it's always on the s to speak up otherwise it's their fault? No. Not always. In some contexts, that's called victim blaming. . Whilst your apparent passion to do (or at least say/type) the right thing is endearing but, truthfully and respectfully, you present yourself as having a very narrow, black and white view of the world. . Speak to people of other genders, learn from their experiences assuming that they're willing to share.
Ma**** Posted July 10 13 minutes ago, CopperKnob said: Not at all, you've just responded to Gemini saying that it's your opinion that the s hold all the power. If that's the only part that I have a differing opinion on, that's the only part of your opinion that im going to speak on. Earlier in the thread I did. There's been alot of comments. You may have missed it
Ma**** Posted July 10 5 minutes ago, CopperKnob said: Your point that it's always on the s to speak up otherwise it's their fault? No. Not always. In some contexts, that's called victim blaming. . Whilst your apparent passion to do (or at least say/type) the right thing is endearing but, truthfully and respectfully, you present yourself as having a very narrow, black and white view of the world. . Speak to people of other genders, learn from their experiences assuming that they're willing to share. You have no idea of me, who I am, what I have been through and certainly not my view of the world..you only have a snippet and glimpse through reading my comments. I would argue that is narrow.
Ma**** Posted July 10 No, my point is, a submissive should always feel able to speak up. If a dom has made a submissive feel like that, feel like they can't speak up. Then that in my opinion, is disgusting. A submissive should always feel safe around their dominant and should always be able to speak to their dominant at any time...in a scene or out of one.
Ma**** Posted July 10 You seem to have missed my vital question, why would a dominant want to make their submissive feel like they are unable to speak up? Without gagging...obviously. Not being able to speak up and communicate with your Dom because they have made you feel unable too...is a problem. We need to acknowledge that.
CopperKnob Posted July 10 4 minutes ago, ManchesterDom98 said: You seem to have missed my vital question, why would a dominant want to make their submissive feel like they are unable to speak up? Without gagging...obviously. Not being able to speak up and communicate with your Dom because they have made you feel unable too...is a problem. We need to acknowledge that. I've not missed it. On the basis that you've had many people sharing alternative views to yours in relation to the power dynamics within D/s and your response to those efforts encouraging you to reflect on a deeper level than to repeat tropes, I made a conscious decision (see what I did there?) not to respond to it other than to direct you elsewhere.
Ma**** Posted July 10 Exactly, nobody has answered the question...just ignored it. Everyone is soo happy to respond to my options, but not answer my questions. See how that could be seen as ignorant and narrow? You pick my opinions apart...I have not been rude, I haven't sworn or got angry or put big capital letters. I'm being quite *** sharing my beliefs and opinions but when I ask a question...it gets ignored. How am I supposed to level this playing field?
CopperKnob Posted July 10 10 minutes ago, ManchesterDom98 said: Exactly, nobody has answered the question...just ignored it. Everyone is soo happy to respond to my options, but not answer my questions. See how that could be seen as ignorant and narrow? You pick my opinions apart...I have not been rude, I haven't sworn or got angry or put big capital letters. I'm being quite *** sharing my beliefs and opinions but when I ask a question...it gets ignored. How am I supposed to level this playing field? How does a white male "level this playing field" when it comes to accessing information/education? . Are you kidding? . It's not by expecting others to educate you. Especially when many have spent their time this evening attempting to on another subject within this same thread and you've declined to consider other viewpoints. Why should we on this one. . You have Google, probably AI or smart tech of some description. I'm sure you have family/friends to ask questions of.
Th**** Posted July 10 @ManchesterDom98 you appear to be speaking on theory and what "should be" while the rest of us are trying to open your eyes to reality and very real things that occur.
Ma**** Posted July 10 32 minutes ago, CopperKnob said: Your point that it's always on the s to speak up otherwise it's their fault? No. Not always. In some contexts, that's called victim blaming. . Whilst your apparent passion to do (or at least say/type) the right thing is endearing but, truthfully and respectfully, you present yourself as having a very narrow, black and white view of the world. . Speak to people of other genders, learn from their experiences assuming that they're willing to share. You are quite literally asking me to speak to people and they opposite sex while simultaneously recommending i use Google and AI.....
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