Airs and Graces: Are we forgetting our manners? Or have times changed?

[PixieDust]

As a society whether we are in the Vanilla or the Kink world there are certain “Airs and Graces” that are expected however I believe this is more so the case in BDSM because of the rich and entrenched history and practices behind it.

I  was recently having a conversation with a Dominant who pulled me up on my lack of acknowledgement of addressing Him and referring to Him as Sir during our discussion.  To be told I lacked manners, I have to say I was a little taken aback by, especially when I pride myself on being polite and having manners.  Though I did not refer to the Dominant as Sir during the conversation, I certainly tried to be respectful throughout.   

At the end of the discussion I walked away feeling somewhat unsettled as it provoked a lot of thought on manners today and how we choose to address a Dominant and or what is expected in today’s society.

Back when I first started out as a young sub at the age 17, dare I say 33 year ago, gosh time flies, but, one of the first things instilled in me by my Dominant was manners,  “Please Sir” “Thank you Sir” “Yes Sir” “No Sir” and so on.  I was also taught to refer to any other Dominant whether it be Male or Female to also address them in the same manner.  Any diversion from that would have resulted in punishment and or discipline for failing to be respectful. 

I continued this practice for many years until I started to become chastised for referring to someone other than my significant Dominant as Sir or Miss or whatever their chosen title may be.  As a result, over time I slowly stopped and refrained from using their title unless specifically asked to do so.  Even to the point in one D/s I was forbidden to refer to any other Dominant by their title of choice particularly the word Sir because that was reserved for my Dominant only.

In addition to the above it was also considered disrespectful to approach an owned submissive without direct permission from their Dominant however today this seems to be a laxed rule in some cases however in others can be seen as highly disrespectful by not following the appropriate protocols. 

Therefore, with my recent discussion in mind, it leads me to ask the question as a society are we forgetting the art of manners and or protocols such as “Airs and Graces” or have times changed?

This also then provokes the following individual questions:

• As a Dominant do you expect to be automatically addressed by your title of choice from the moment you engage in a conversation with a submissive?

• As a Dominant who is in a D/s do you expect your submissive to address all other Dominants in a similar manner or do you reserve your title of choice for you and you alone?

• As a Dominant do you approach other owned submissives without first asking for permission from their Dominant partner? Do you feel you are being disrespectful by doing so?

• As a submissive how to do you feel about calling anyone other than your Dominant who you are in a D/S with by a title of their choosing in a normal conversation?

• As a submissive are you allowed to approach another Dominant without express permission?

• As a submissive are you allowed to engage in other platonic friendships with other Dominants? And if so are you allowed to address them by any other title?

• How do you as a community feel on manners in today’s society have, we lost the ancient art form of being polite and respectful?

I could ask so many other questions on this topic and maybe this can lead to some other forum discussions however I believe this is a discussion that needs to be had, as I would hate for someone else to feel affronted by not being addressed in the manner they are expecting and or deserving.  

I welcome your thoughts.

[Deleted Member]

It seems it's one of those days I've just had a similar incident.

In terms of having to ask permission to speak to other Dom's / Sub's, I do not have to ask for permission unless I am trying to engage in some form of play (which I am not interested in with anyone else other than my Dom ) if it is a case of conversing to learn and / or have a friendly chat my Dom supports and sometimes even encourages this. I often show him messages where I don't feel comfortable or am unsure on how to respond as his opinion is often very helpful and respected by me.

It's strange as the seems to be a old and new outlook on etiquette and sometimes I feel I've missed the memo somewhere.

Sending lots of cuddles and please don't let the experience shake you too 🤗

[Deleted Member]

@PixieDust I've often thought this, when I have spoken to Dominants, either recently or in the past. I for one have never been corrected on my etiquette towards calling any Doms Sir. Maybe it depends on the Dom himself? 

[Cade]

Excellent topic! I wanted to offer my opinion, but feel I should clarify that what I'm about to express is completely based on my own personal experiences, and may not reflect any one else's experiences.

2 hours ago, PixieDust said:

Therefore, with my recent discussion in mind, it leads me to ask the question as a society are we forgetting the art of manners and or protocols such as “Airs and Graces” or have times changed?

Forgotten? No. Do times change? Yes. I believe at the core of this community (not society, by-and-large), there is a stable belief in structure and protocol that those that practice this more as a lifestyle will always try to represent. Of course, as you move further from that core in the kink community, you come across less genuine, more temporary players that simply don't understand/have no use for/can't be bothered with even the most basic manners. These types inflate the community population when BDSM/fetish/kink is trending, but tend to filter out quickly.

2 hours ago, PixieDust said:

As a Dominant do you expect to be automatically addressed by your title of choice from the moment you engage in a conversation with a submissive?

No, but because my title is reserved for my servants and property.

2 hours ago, PixieDust said:

As a Dominant who is in a D/s do you expect your submissive to address all other Dominants in a similar manner or do you reserve your title of choice for you and you alone?

The latter, as stated previously - mostly. How my submissive/slave refers to others is determined by their relationship; for anyone new, she calls them by name, but as an individual earns trust and respect with myself and her, their title may be opted to denote that level of respect reached. If someone earned the same level of trust and respect as me, than the use of my own personal title would be considered.

2 hours ago, PixieDust said:

As a Dominant do you approach other owned submissives without first asking for permission from their Dominant partner? Do you feel you are being disrespectful by doing so?

Situational. If I am at a more casual event where most everyone is on lower protocol, and it was an environment mingling was expected, then I may. In high protocol scenarios, definitely not. Likewise, I must note that this would never be approaching the submissive in a private or intimate manner, more on a human friendship level that dynamic roles would not be a consideration. Yes, I would feel as if I were being disrespectful if knowingly contacted someone's submissive in a dynamic that requires the dominant's permission to contact. Comically, even when a submissive (in a dynamic) contacts me, I do request that they make sure to have their partner's permission to talk with me.

2 hours ago, PixieDust said:

How do you as a community feel on manners in today’s society have, we lost the ancient art form of being polite and respectful?

Returning to the first question, I don't feel it's been lost, but perhaps more niché.

One last closing thought:

Honorific titles denote some level of respect earned. Once upon a time, one could only claim the titles "sir" and "master" after many years of learning, training, and proving their ability in those roles; the change I think you may be observing is the increase of self defined "dominants", typically with no clue of the responsibility and duties, but allured by the perceived power of the role. It is simple to understand that just because someone claims to be dominant doesn't mean they are deserving of respect.

This is significant because there will be dominants that will want to earn that respect; there will be individuals that demand that respect before earning it for any given reason - not a single good one comes to mind, though. Haha.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Cade

[Phoenyx]

1 hour ago, PixieDust said:

I  was recently having a conversation with a Dominant who pulled me up on my lack of acknowledgement of addressing Him and referring to Him as Sir during our discussion.

It wasn't me!

That said, on to the questions:

1 hour ago, PixieDust said:

As a Dominant do you expect to be automatically addressed by your title of choice from the moment you engage in a conversation with a submissive?

No.  We need to get to know each other as people first, before moving-on to that next step.  However, when I get messaged by prospective subs, it would be nice if they opened with something a little more respectful than "Hello Sexy!"

1 hour ago, PixieDust said:

As a Dominant who is in a D/s do you expect your submissive to address all other Dominants in a similar manner or do you reserve your title of choice for you and you alone?

Not really, unless it is a "high-protocol" setting.  In that case, I have a simple solution.  For myself, I might reserve, "My Lord".  Other male Doms would be "Sir".  And, the lady Dominas, "Ma'am" or "Madame".

1 hour ago, PixieDust said:

As a Dominant do you approach other owned submissives without first asking for permission from their Dominant partner? Do you feel you are being disrespectful by doing so?

I would not approach in a formal setting, without first asking.  However, in an informal setting, like a "munch", it can happen inadvertently, as everyone gets to know each other.  At that point, I would expect them to tell me that they are owned.  Bonus points, if they then introduce me to their Master/Mistress.

Of course, everyone knows how informal I am on this list.  it gets exhausting, trying to keep-up "the persona" all the time.

[Cade]

An additional thought to consider: The title doesn't make the dominant. That is to say, a dominant will be dominant without any title, at all.

[Rumpleseed]

Such an interesting and well written post pixie, you are to be commended little one.

For my 2 cents worth. I've been a Dominant since the early 90's. I, like many others of my time, took great pride when training our slaves and subs. Manners, both in private and public were paramount. The way in which they carried themself before other Dom/mes, was a direct reflection upon us. 

Ignoring the weekend wannabe "so called" Dom/mes and vanilla's trying to pass themself off as one, every true, educated and experienced dominant ensured his/her slave/sub addressed others of our kind by Sir or Miss. Respect shown is respect received was our creed. Punishment for absence of mind was often swift and weighted and not many relapsed.

As for permission to speak with an owned, collared sub. I pose this question. Would you allow your husband or wife to engage with anyone at anytime unbenownce to you? I doubt it. Being collared is for life and is as binding on both parties as a wedding ring. Anyone who states otherwise is either uneducated, or a vanilla exposing who they really  are. 

We in the lifestyle speak a different language, have different expectations and think differently to mainstream society. It's what makes us all "unique".

[Charms]

Im sorry but how dare he expect you to call him sir. When i had a master i only called him sir but mostly  master. Other doms i call by thrre name.

 

I am not any one elses so i dont have 2 call any  one else miss or sor

 He stepped over boundarys really bad in my eyes.

 

As for subs who are owned as soon as u know a sub is oened you never speak to them.with out permission  of there dom agreeing its ok.

 

Last year when i was at a kink event some freinds were there i spoke 2 the dom n gave her a hug. But even though im good freinds with the sub i adked permison to hug the sub. The fom said they had already spoken about me huging the sub as i hug all my freinds and they had already agreed  between  them that i could hug the sub as were such good freinds. But yhe dom.did say ty that i asked  first.

 

Even on here i have freinds but soon as there oened i will not pm or whisper to them unless permission  of yhrre dom

 

I have a best freind of here who i love uncondiontallly  and i call her my queen. As she as been my rock like my mom.as and there in my eyes queens because  there loyality n love is endless. I treat my queen of her like i do my mom. My queen on her as sat up with me for hours n hours when my dad died n other things happened. They shown me nothing  but love.

 

I xall her queen not in a dom sense  but a queen like my.mom. theres only 2 ladys i love like that.

 

My queen  on here as become  part of a dynamic she is now owned. Im so pleased for my queen she deserves all the happiness  she can get. So i told her id tone fown our relationship  and not call her my queen and id ask gor permission to speak to her. But she told me she had spoken to her dom who i am freinds with and my queen had told her why i call her my queen and y i love her because i do genersly lover her in a platonic way. She explained to her dom our frendship and her dom was happy for me to call her my queen and was happy my queen and i have the frendship we do. But id still would of adked permison first. Ftom my queens dom before i txted her away from chat.

 

So no no one other than a persons dom.should be called usein a title an u never take over a sub or talk to one

[Phoenyx]

2 minutes ago, Cade said:

The title doesn't make the dominant. That is to say, a dominant will be dominant without any title, at all.

So true!  Which is why I don't mind relaxing and being informal, on a regular basis.  I am what I am---title or not.  Still, I must admit to a certain thrill, a certain chill of ecstasy, when addressed by my chosen title.  Of course, if I heard it all the time, it would become mundane---hence, the need for breaks of informality.

There is one exception, though.  I get somewhat taken-aback, when I am addressed formally by a stranger, in an informal setting.  We have no agreement for such protocol.  So, it is best to keep it informal (but respectful) until such an agreement is reached.

[Cade]

29 minutes ago, Rumpleseed said:

As for permission to speak with an owned, collared sub. I pose this question. Would you allow your husband or wife to engage with anyone at anytime unbenownce to you? I doubt it. Being collared is for life and is as binding on both parties as a wedding ring. Anyone who states otherwise is either uneducated, or a vanilla exposing who they really  are.

I have to respectfully disagree on both parts.

I do allow my slave to talk with anyone unbeknownst to me. I trust her training and understanding of our protocol to know that if the conversation became anything questionable or something she isn't comfortable with, she is going to send them to talk to me (her go to is, "That is something you need to discuss with my owner"). Likewise, I don't want to limit her pool of friendships; she has many male dominant friends that benefit her life. Of course, I think this just serves as a reflection of our commitment to one another - I am not threatened by her exploring friendships outside my direct guidance.

I would state otherwise that collaring is for life. But, my dynamic is just different from yours, and I'm not saying you are wrong *for you*. Keeping to your analogy: my dynamic sees the collar more as an engagement ring, with branding being the lifelong commitment. For me, the collar represents a submissive in training to be a slave, which the individual may well decide they don't actually desire at some point of realization during training. My dynamic is different than yours, so I state otherwise - which does not mean I'm uneducated or vanilla.

[Bo****]

PixieDust, most excellent question set!

Big Love fluidic thanks and respect.

A topic that is a veritable mindfield,to interact within a community of varying dynamics. Being respectful to all,displaying archaic manners bordering on chivalric,can be taken as a boundary "infringement" unfortunately.

Or at times,insult? by those whom are yet to confront their own inadequacies and insecurities ( merely an experienced observation) A minority,thankfully,so those who are aware enough to appreciate respectful intent ,i humbly thank you!

This is our freedom of kink positive community,sharing and caring ,....we is tribe,so balance nice place to be?

Life,love n Unity🙏

[PixieDust]

Thank you so much for everyone's replies and insight so far, I very much appreciate the time you have taken to reply.  Please forgive me for not replying individually, only for the fact that if I did I maybe repeating myself. 

I actually couldn't sleep last night as the conversation I had, was playing heavily on mind and thus decided to write a forum post to see what others thought on the entire subject.  

If I am completely honest, I am really torn about how I feel about this topic in general.  Part of me is "old school" due to how I experienced my early days as a young sub, but then the other part me, is now, the much older sub who  has greater experience and knowledge and for that matter differing thoughts than what she might have once considered  to be her "gospel". 

Part of me is drawn back to the ways of "old school' because that is what sits right with me but then having said that you then get the insecure and for that matter disrespectful Dominants who have no idea what respect is about and for me to acknowledge them by title just because they are a Dominant also doesn't sit well with me. 

So where do you draw the line in the sand ? 

This then brings me to my next thought on communicating with other Dominants when I am in a D/s,  as for me personally I love to chat to everyone about everything and anything, as I am a chatterbox......so for my Dominant to then turn around and forbid from chatting to other Dominants, I don't know if that would sit well with me either these days. 

For me, I gain my nurturing through communication which I have learnt through my Astrology studies so I know what works for me and what doesn't.  However on the other hand you want to trust that your Dominant knows what is right for you and your needs. So do you go against their rules to gain you own satisfaction?  Its tricky because for me as a submissive ofcourse I want to follow my Dominants instructions to the letter but the other part of me wants to go screw you I'll chat to who I like, but then knowing me I wouldn't do that because I would want to remain respectful to my Dominant at all times.

I really don't know if there is a right or a wrong answer to these questions. At this point in time I really am conflicted in my thoughts and it may boil down to each individual situation on what I deem appropriate for me.  

At the end of the day I am my own judge and jury regardless of having a Dominant or not.  The only person who can make me feel bad is me, a lesson that has taken me many years to learn. 

I also think regardless of your role your manners are everything, its not hard to be polite whether you are the Dominant or submissive in any given situation.

[Bo****]

PixieDust....you are who you are....respect that in yourself,and stay true to that respect . Great writing and fair ,balanced,insightful plea for manners. Yet,not a protocol for protocol's sake plea.... Intent is paramount, especially in the dynamics we choose ,to express our inner selves. Thank you🙏

[PixieDust]

The more I sit here and think about it, the more I think you can't compare protocol to protocol, because what one person considers as a diamond another person considers as coal.  At the end of the day everyone has their own opinions on what etiquette is right for them and their situation. However again I think as long as we have good manners and are always respectful of each other we can work around anything.  

[Wi****]

As I dom my sub gets to talk to whoever he likes, I would expect him to tell me if another dom makes contact.

As for other dom expecting to be called sir or master/ mistress by everyone, no, I don't see why that should happen myself.

Being polite is something that should be a norm, for everyone.

[ey****]

9 hours ago, PixieDust said:

As a Dominant do you expect to be automatically addressed by your title of choice from the moment you engage in a conversation with a submissive?

No.

I think if someone assume the role because they are trying to make a good impression that is fair - but then a casual chit chat is also a good impression if we have no dynamic.

9 hours ago, PixieDust said:

As a Dominant who is in a D/s do you expect your submissive to address all other Dominants in a similar manner or do you reserve your title of choice for you and you alone?

I would expect a sub of mine to address others appropriately for their respective relationship.  (in short. no.)

9 hours ago, PixieDust said:

As a Dominant do you approach other owned submissives without first asking for permission from their Dominant partner? Do you feel you are being disrespectful by doing so?

Depends on the approach.  If it's "Hey, want to ignore any protocol you have and play with me" then I wouldn't do it and it'd be disrespectful.  If it's in a club and it's "hey, love that outfit" or online in a "I enjoyed your post" I might do it and don't see it as disrespectful.

9 hours ago, PixieDust said:

As a submissive how to do you feel about calling anyone other than your Dominant who you are in a D/S with by a title of their choosing in a normal conversation?

In a normal conversation.  No.  Mind, when I was in a relationship with my previous Mistress one of her rules was to extend the same protocol I'd use for her to her friends (so, capital protocol, address as Mistress, so on) but that's different it's an extension of that relationship.

9 hours ago, PixieDust said:

As a submissive are you allowed to approach another Dominant without express permission?

Again when I was in my previous relationship - I was allowed to contact others to initiate filming but not to ask for play or offer servitude. Which is fair. Mind, I feel there's an overlap if you were to ask "what is servitude" which ties in to my next point.

9 hours ago, PixieDust said:

As a submissive are you allowed to engage in other platonic friendships with other Dominants? And if so are you allowed to address them by any other title?

I would not engage with a Dominant who did not allow me to engage in platonic friendships with other Dominants.  This is a strict red line for me.  This engagement might involve me doing things for them - cos they're my friends and that.  

9 hours ago, PixieDust said:

How do you as a community feel on manners in today’s society have, we lost the ancient art form of being polite and respectful?

One of those questions where it's difficult to keep my word count down.  I think on one hand, we're in a period now where we can pick up or phones and get what we want pretty instantly - from taxis, to shopping, to pizza - so on.  But there's no instant way for relationships we might want, no matter how much some seem to think there should be.

That said, I find a lot of the "you will call me Sir" lot are usually older... their argument is probably a "back in my day, subs just did what they were told" confusing some form of local protocol with how it's not a sub free-for-all in the wider world. 

[li****]

This is a wonderful topic @PixieDust and I pride myself on having manners and respect not only in my own D/s but when it comes to others in the lifestyle also. I'm what you would call a newish sub been a submissive for about 5 years now, but in those 5 years I've learnt a hell of lot and still do now, and that is through reading and asking other Dom/me, subs and slaves a like!!! I have many a Dom friend here and they have helped me in so many ways also my own Sir of course helps with me also. I've never been a fan of the old protocols but I think that's just cause the traditions etc just don't sit well me but I of course respect others who do but I think kink and BDSM has moved on so much and is always growing and changing so yes if you yourself still follow these protocols that's ok but you can't expect all others to follow too!!!

 

My Dom allows me to speak to whoever I choose and I'm the same with him, how are we to make friends with people if we can't reach out to those, yes they maybe a idiot but simple put them on block. I've been in a controlling/abusive relationship before and was told never to speak to anyone unless I was told, so now I love having that freedom of chatting to whoever I like. Yes I'm respectful when chatting to another Dom/me on here but I wouldn't call them sir/master/miss anything like that as that's for MY Sir alone!!! Of course I've gone to the Dom first and said may I chat to your submissive as to me that's just being polite and respectful of their dynamic. 

 

I have many a friend here who I've made close friendships with and that's off my own back not cause my Dom had said yeah they are ok you can chat to them!!!! I'm always respectful in my messages on here unless your a dickhead then of course why should I be nice to you if you can't be nice to me. 

[Wo****]

When I was in a D/s relationship with Pirate I would only call him Sir. In fact I'll only address my Dom like that.

I was free to talk to anyone I liked, if there was potential for play then I'd tell him.

If I addressed a Dominant as Sir, it'd be because they requested it, or it was appropriate. I live the protocol. The not meeting a Dominants eye, waiting to be addressed, but I couldn't live it.

 

I'm not a "traditional" submissive but I can respect the traditions and protocol.

[Deleted Member]

3 hours ago, wilkie said:

 

Being polite is something that should be a norm, for everyone.

And those words are basically the crux of the whole thread. Sadly not all see it this way and some feel it applies even less in this community when in fact it applies even more(done correctly). The respectful protocols we should ALL follow for me transfer from vanilla in just the same way but again some see sites like this as a free ticket to forget manners and respect when in fact that is the key way to make new friends, to make new contacts and eventually to find a partner

Edited July 13, 2020 by Deleted Member
Spelling

[E-dUbBs]

Great topic
I’ll be honest, the whole I should be respected thing leaves me feeling like it’s a bit pompous
I believe to demand respect isn’t acceptable it should be earned
Someone instantly calling me sir leaves me uneasy
But horses for courses I say if someone doesn’t like your way of etiquette then it’s their way and yours is yours so be it

[li****]

6 minutes ago, E-dUbBs said:

I’ll be honest, the whole I should be respected thing leaves me feeling like it’s a bit pompous
 

This says it all for me!!!! Some Dom's who demand respect ect can come across as arrogant, cocky and condescending and to me I don't wanna talk to someone who comes across like that! Confidence is way different to arrogance and it shows when the Dom's demand something from you or call you a pet name when unowned of owned in fact I've had many a so called Dom call me a pet name when they know I'm in a dynamic and to me even if I wasn't in a dynamic or had a Sir I wouldn't feel comfortable with someone calling me a pet name.

Edited July 13, 2020 by lil-monster

[E-dUbBs]

7 minutes ago, lil-monster said:

This says it all for me!!!! Some Dom's who demand respect ect can come across as arrogant, cocky and condescending and to me I don't wanna talk to someone who comes across like that! Confidence is way different to arrogance and it shows when the Dom's demand something from you or call you a pet name when unowned of owned in fact I've had many a so called Dom call me a pet name when they know I'm in a dynamic and to me even if I wasn't in a dynamic or had a Sir I wouldn't feel comfortable with someone calling me a pet name.

Thanks lilm but I know that myself and you and your Sir have had a similar view for as long as I can remember (I’m getting old lol)

[Deleted Member]

12 hours ago, PixieDust said:

 

 

I welcome your thoughts.

All.i could add has already been said @PixieDust But a brilliant post, well written and I agree with all your points. What we do need more of is openness such as this and for me a stricter set of rules for dealing with those who lack the most basic vanilla concepts, respect and manners. Its not difficult, there is a huge line and we ALL know where it is, when they choose to be rude/spiteful it's exactly that, a choice.

[li****]

15 minutes ago, E-dUbBs said:

Thanks lilm but I know that myself and you and your Sir have had a similar view for as long as I can remember (I’m getting old lol)

We do Ed and you're not getting old lol I've always respected your views Ed and I'm sure Sir does also. I think we have to realise that BDSM and kink is changing and involving so much and still continue to do for years to come and I think like @Donnykinkster says basic respect and manners either in vanilla and or kink should always be there. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by lil-monster

[Deleted Member]

Just now, lil-monster said:

We do Ed and you're not getting old lol I've always respected your views Ed and I'm sure Sir does also. I think we have to realise that BDSM and kink is changing and involving so much and still continue to do for years to come and I think like @Donnykinkster says basic respect and manners either in vanilla and or kink should always be there. 

For me there is zero difference here or vanilla. It's the same concept but sadly those values in vanilla are slowly being eroded so it's going to be even worse here. What I am seeing now though is some push back and a willingness from more to confront it and that is what we need. The goid folk shall we say standing as one against those who try so hard to destroy these most basic concepts. The only way we can deal with these fools is firstly what is happening right here