Does Lived Experience Shape Our Learning Curve in the Kink Community?

[JusticeForHJ]

Recently, I made a post on a different forum (not this one). This one is about how learning curve can be hampered when there is a difference in lived experience (last time, I realised that differences in communication style may not be enough to explain that: flatlined progress). I am saying that you do not have to be new to kink to struggle in these regards, if you struggle with the dominant social culture of the community, and I have felt in my own experiences misunderstood, or actively misread at times. Not because I have been resistant but the way how, in my bid to learn, I have been probed to uncover "reasons" why, or provided advice that can be flippant, unsolicited or corrective.

I believe that a community that claims to prioritise informed consent can still be ostracising, especially if boundaries are imagined and then claimed to not be observed. I have argued that the idea of rules at times can feel stifling or arbitrary, even if necessary to the functioning of the group. It is fair to request some common grounds to be observed, but I do not think the ethical boundaries become more healthy when someone with an outside perspective is unfairly penalised before they have even considered requesting to be involved in BDSM.

The idea of a "challenge" in this instance causes "in-group" threat, alarm, panic and distress which leads to pack mentality (dog piles, brigading, malicious communications, etc.). I don't think this causes outsiders to become more reasonable in response, I believe it triggers the same fight or flight reaction, because some kind of deviation, within reason, is required, some kind of light probing or testing of the group's meta-narrative. Without that, the group becomes an echo chamber, where it presupposes certain rules are just correct, advanced, moral, without seriously testing how those parameters work in practice, or just being open to discussion.

An outsider could be a pathogen, they could be a medicine, gut bacteria or they could be pollen. We have to question how our bodies react to these things to stay healthy. On a collective scale, always acting like white *** cells, can cause us to become bullies. In fact, sometimes it is the predators who act as guardians, while accusing others of what they themselves, are guilty of, to win influence over group dynamics. I consider this a serious problem with unchallenged authority in general, but being questioning of authority is too frequently treated with great distrust and unnecessary rigidity.                                            

I have attempted to engage with BDSM, both the online forum and local scene, for some years, and struggled not for a lack of curiosity or awareness on my behalf, but truthfully there just has not been that mutual recognition. I do feel there are many bad faith actors in position of influence, too many. Though you could say just one is one too many, I would say that there really is enough of them to have shaped my personal experience.

This is enough not just to frame me as "new" but "unready", "immature", "entitled", "different", etc. Admissions that I have struggled have lead to excessive scrutiny, hostile speculation, character assassination, and advice that is far too general (and most likely already tried) to be useful. I have noticed a tendency for group responses to turn sour at a rate that is alarming and unnerving, no matter how tolerant or diverse the kink community prides itself to be.

[Qu****]

Its sounds to me that you've gotten backlash for either disregarding rules or questioning them in the community. Understand every space may have individual sets of rules, these aren't put up arbitrarily but have been thought about from experiences that you haven't lived through. If everyone came in thinking they knew better than the location's staff it would be a mess and injuries would happen. As someone who works in a dungeon I don't have the time or patience to babysit adults. For instance we have a rule for fire play that if you're doing it you must have burn cream on hand. Sure I can sit there and explain that something will go wrong even if you've had decades of experience but if I have to explain it time and time again it will take me from other duties. I also do vetting for my dungeon, if you can't demonstrate that you have read through the rules why should I allow you into my dungeon?

[ey****]

yes, lived experience can affect the learning curve

however, this is the same with anything and everywhere.

Like if you're looking for a job you don't just turn up at a company say that you work there now, and that you disagree with all their rules and that they're doing it wrong.   This doesn't mean any company wouldn't appreciate different perspectives, but if you turn up - acting like you know better than them - it's not going to go down well.   You are often have expected to do a little bit of groundwork first before getting a job there.

And this is the issue over years, that a lot of kink groups exist from periods of trial and error, from different feedback and perspectives, moving around frameworks and (where relevant) legislation -- and then someone new/outside comes "you're doing it wrong" and often without any evidence to back this up.

This said, of course, most groups are not perfect - and if you've never been in one, you won't be aware of actually a lot of the disagreements and pushbacks within them - often different perspectives and how people would do things differently.

 

[JusticeForHJ]

10 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

This said, of course, most groups are not perfect - and if you've never been in one, you won't be aware of actually a lot of the disagreements and pushbacks within them - often different perspectives and how people would do things differently.

Exactly, they do arise with time, one way or another. And when they do, disagreement must learn to be tolerated and not "ban anyone who even looks like they may think different". To assume malice, or even neglect, from someone who has not even asked to attend events meets the parameters of toxicity.

[ey****]

yep, they do learn to live with disagreement - which is why they continue to exist.

Though, a lot does depend on the nature of the disagreement.  I guess for example, everyone thinks they know how they'd handle certain scenarios, and might judge others for their handling of it.  But then they themselves later be in a situation whereby it wasn't as straight forward as it seems

It depends where the different lines of thought or agreement lie.  

[ak****]

I actually know the exact type of feminist you're talking about, unfortunately these are the type of people that are so filled with some sort of repressed rage/hatred towards anyone who says something that doesn't even have to do with them personally yet they choose to engage by spewing out all sorts of vile disgusting words/attitudes/thoughts of nothing but pure unfiltered HATE and no matter how someone tries to reason with them, hell even just to take the volume down a bit.. there's nothing anyone can do or say, to get them to TRY to see things from any other perspective than the one that's hard wired into their brains. Iv even encountered a very small number of men who are this way which honestly doesn't make sense because what they're preaching goes against men as a whole, it's almost like a mind virus, once someone starts buying the talking points and ideology that goes along with it, there's no pulling back to self access which is scary because it only grabs a hold of them even tighter because when they go off on someone for whatever reason they find to offend them or disagree with, when someone tries to defend their position/statement or even tries to agree for the sake of lowering the volume.. anything but a full throated apology and acknowledgement of how wrong they were will never be close to enough for them, sometimes no matter what is said isn't enough because it was never even about the actual argument for them it's just the self fulfilling validation they feel when they make someone feel less than human and that give them immense satisfaction.. and sadly no exaggeration 98% of people who are like this are non apologetically aligned with the far left.. I hate that I even have to bring that up but in all seriousness look for yourself

[JusticeForHJ]

11 hours ago, akSRT8 said:

.. there's nothing anyone can do or say, to get them to TRY to see things from any other perspective than the one that's hard wired into their brains. Iv even encountered a very small number of men who are this way which honestly doesn't make sense because what they're preaching goes against men as a whole, it's almost like a mind virus, once someone starts buying the talking points and ideology that goes along with it, there's no pulling back to self access which is scary because it only grabs a hold of them even tighter because when they go off on someone for whatever reason they find to offend them or disagree with, when someone tries to defend their position/statement or even tries to agree for the sake of lowering the volume.. anything but a full throated apology and acknowledgement of how wrong they were will never be close to enough for them, sometimes no matter what is said isn't enough because it was never even about the actual argument for them it's just the self fulfilling validation they feel when they make someone feel less than human and that give them immense satisfaction..

Off topic coment removed, the rest follows.....

 

What I've done therefore is selectively quote you and I will try to reply in a reasonable way. For example, in terms of "the type of people that filled with some sort of repressed feeling", etc. and the emotive way they react. I realise that it sounds hard the way I've put it myself, but I have not intended to sound like I am being hostile to any gender in general, I was just trying to discuss how I had historically been labelled for my societal outlook, and factors that had previously been described.

Edited February 21 by FETMod-RG
removed off topic content

[JusticeForHJ]

@akSRT8

Trying as best I can to respond within cautious parameters: there wasn't any hostility on my part towards any group but an experience I've had repeatedly, in terms of being interpreted negatively for my social outlook and how that developed from personal circumstances rather than animosity towards others.

With these sorts of disagreements, people often assume they know how they would handle these sorts of situations in my shoes. But we've seen that without direct examples, I am mistrusted or seen as too ambiguous to understand. When I do try to provide from my own history and in terms of what's happened to me, that invokes an emotional reaction, like what you've described.

Therefore all we can do as humans when we find ourselves in these situations is respond selectively and try to present as reasonable, even when we find ourselves on the hot end of things from those who are not really interested in understanding something unless it easily presents itself as simple and straightforward.

But I haven't tried to provoke, I have tried to explain why certain discussions simply can't be had very easily without being misunderstood. That's because experiences aren't always straightforward and can be quickly reduced to labels or moral judgements.

Edited February 21 by JusticeForHJ