How would you have gone about negotiating for a change?

[Deleted Member]

This conversation followed one in which I was trying to ask for more domination in our dynamic. I had been watching some videos to get advice on how to improve things. Perhaps it wasn’t the right time to then ask for this … 😏

 

“Lockfairy: 🧎‍♀️ While we’re talking, Sir, Can I request a renegotiation of a certain aspect?

Sir: Ok

Lockfairy: 🧎‍♀️Thank you, Sir 🥰 One of the videos talked about the importance of asking for permission as a means of enforcing D/s. She gave examples such as “asking to go to the toilet if you are a little.” This really hit home and clarified why I really dislike this part of our relationship. I’ve said before I feel it infantilises me - it’s because I’m not a little. Would you please allow me to stop asking for permission to go to the toilet, Sir? I understand how important asking for permission is and I accept there will be replacements. 🧎‍♀️

Sir: The reason I enjoy it and need you to ask permission is that it’s a checkpoint in the day that regularly grounds us both in our relationship. The regularity of it and the fact that it happens when we are out as well, is lovely. It’s not specifically the toilet part that’s important but more the regularity and asking permission. So we will leave it in place now, but I understand your comment about infantilisation and we can discuss at more depth.

Lockfairy: 🧎‍♀️ With respect, Sir, I don’t feel it’s appropriate to our particular dynamic.

Sir: Why is that ?

Lockfairy: Because I’m not a little and it makes me feel appalling sometimes.

Sir: Appalling? Can you expand ?

Lockfairy: I wait until you’ve gone out before I pee. I try to make sure I go before you get back. I do my utmost not to wake you up. I often think about sneaking to the toilet without you noticing. If I am in a good mood, it’s not so bad, but if I’m not, it makes me cringe inside.

Lockfairy: It makes me feel like a school child and that isn’t necessarily a good place for me.

Sir: Do you feel an element of control ?

Lockfairy: Of course, Sir

Sir: Then it stays … I will think more about this though. Maybe we can discuss face to face next week.

Sir: I will think about alternatives where we can achieve the same result

Lockfairy: I’d like to discuss this on the forums, Sir. 

Sir: Why is that ?

Lockfairy: Because I want to know what other subs would do in my place, Sir.

Sir: Ok“

 

[MsDrawers]

I can't speak to your dynamic, but as a general rule in life and all relationships, if you don't like something, don't want to do it and it makes you unhappy, you shouldn't be doing it. There wasn't anything wrong with your negotiation. You stated why you don't like it, willingness to propose alternatives and respectfully raised the issue. Choosing not to respect your position despite it making you feel uncomfortable and not being good for your wellbeing (if you're feeling bad and not going to the loo when you need!) Is a weird flex. The control is supposed to be about the dynamic, not an end in itself. He can substitute this for other things and should be willing to work with you to do that.

[Wo****]

@Lockfairy

It's good that you brought this up and discussed it with your Sir, and you'll be talking it through face to face but, personally, if I was in your place I would be telling my Sir that asking for permission to use the toilet is now a limit.

 

I'd also consider if there could be times allocated where I do ask for permission. Compromise however if it makes you feel awful, I'd be questioning the point.

 

I'd talk it through more with him but ultimately it's your decision.

[Deleted Member]

28 minutes ago, MsDrawers said:

I can't speak to your dynamic, but as a general rule in life and all relationships, if you don't like something, don't want to do it and it makes you unhappy, you shouldn't be doing it. There wasn't anything wrong with your negotiation. You stated why you don't like it, willingness to propose alternatives and respectfully raised the issue. Choosing not to respect your position despite it making you feel uncomfortable and not being good for your wellbeing (if you're feeling bad and not going to the loo when you need!) Is a weird flex. The control is supposed to be about the dynamic, not an end in itself. He can substitute this for other things and should be willing to work with you to do that.

Thank you for replying and for letting me know my negotiation was ok. You have summed up how I feel, really. This is my first D/s relationship and I initially accepted this rule without questioning it as it is something my Sir likes and I didn’t know how it would make me feel. 
 

As I intimated in my initial post, I suspect the “No. No. Maybe.” response I got was partly because I had just been asking for more dominance, but we shall see …
 

[Deleted Member]

28 minutes ago, BountyHunter said:

@Lockfairy

It's good that you brought this up and discussed it with your Sir, and you'll be talking it through face to face but, personally, if I was in your place I would be telling my Sir that asking for permission to use the toilet is now a limit.

 

I'd also consider if there could be times allocated where I do ask for permission. Compromise however if it makes you feel awful, I'd be questioning the point.

 

I'd talk it through more with him but ultimately it's your decision.

Thank you for taking the time to reply, BountyHunter. I hadn’t thought of using hard limits as a way of stopping this. Fingers crossed I won’t need to, but it’s good to be reminded of the strategies I can use if I need to. 

[Deleted Member]

Personally I think no one has the right to stop you going to the toilet whenever you like. You don't need to ask permission to do such a basic thing. Yes you give control to your Dom but you have the right to withdraw your consent to that control at any point and you don't have to justify that. Being submissive is your choice and you can choose what you are submissive for and what you aren't. If he can't respect that then he sounds to me like a bully rather than a Dom? Surely it has to be about mutual trust and consent. It can't be one sided like that I don't think..... Just my view but understand others may see it differently. Hope you manage to get it sorted X

[ey****]

I think one of the most important things to remember is that consent can be changed or revoked at any time.   I think in context it's better to have discussions on why you are not happy with it (and why it is important to him) above just saying "I don't want to do *that* anymore" 

A lot of working out dynamics will be fluid - which may involve agreeing to one thing you find is no longer working, or even just temporarily putting an idea on the backburner.

[MsDrawers]

6 minutes ago, Lockfairy said:

Thank you for replying and for letting me know my negotiation was ok. You have summed up how I feel, really. This is my first D/s relationship and I initially accepted this rule without questioning it as it is something my Sir likes and I didn’t know how it would make me feel. 
 

As I intimated in my initial post, I suspect the “No. No. Maybe.” response I got was partly because I had just been asking for more dominance, but we shall see …
 

I can see how that may have confused the issue, but actually they're two sides of the same coin in that you would like "more" but in a way which speaks to you and the dynamic you wish to create. These things are delicate and take time, regardless of experience - in a sense at least - because your relationship is unique. 

[Deleted Member]

Just now, Prettysub2020 said:

Personally I think no one has the right to stop you going to the toilet whenever you like. You don't need to ask permission to do such a basic thing. Yes you give control to your Dom but you have the right to withdraw your consent to that control at any point and you don't have to justify that. Being submissive is your choice and you can choose what you are submissive for and what you aren't. If he can't respect that then he sounds to me like a bully rather than a Dom? Surely it has to be about mutual trust and consent. It can't be one sided like that I don't think..... Just my view but understand others may see it differently. Hope you manage to get it sorted X

Thanks for your reply. I think this is just a glitch on the way to moving our relationship on, rather than an alarm bell. My Sir is generally the kindest, most generous man I’ve probably ever met, vanilla or otherwise ❤️

[Deleted Member]

That's good to know.  I would definitely stick to your guns on your ground rules and boundaries.  It has to work for both of you so don't allow yourself to be pushed into anything you are uncomfortable with.  Good luck XX 

[Deleted Member]

5 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I think one of the most important things to remember is that consent can be changed or revoked at any time.   I think in context it's better to have discussions on why you are not happy with it (and why it is important to him) above just saying "I don't want to do *that* anymore" 

A lot of working out dynamics will be fluid - which may involve agreeing to one thing you find is no longer working, or even just temporarily putting an idea on the backburner.

Yes, I’d much rather this was resolved through discussion. Our relationship is brat-free at the moment and this is as close as it has come to that changing. 

[CopperKnob]

I'd consider at it from a health perspective too. If you're that uncomfortable to ask, will it get to the point that you withhold fluids/hold your bladder? I mean, hopefully not but, it could result in dehydration/UTI which will put a stop to play but ultimately cause ill health.
Good luck with your negotiations!

[ge****]

It's a difficult one - on the one hand it's a pre-negotiated thing, albeit one agreed to on your part with an element of newness/naivety behind it, so I can understand both sides - on the other hand it's a basic human function and one not always easily controlled and therefore a degree of flexibility is required.

It may also depend on how this actually plays out - is it you only have to ask his permission when in his presence? Which is what you seem to have indicated by saying you wait till he's gone out.

Ultimately though, and regardless of all that, if it makes you feel uncomfortable this shouldn't even be about re-negotiating anything, or him giving his permission to stop doing so - it should be as simple as you telling him you'll no longer be asking his permission to go to the toilet because it makes you feel uncomfortable and that should be an end to it.

Sure talk it through if necessary, even offer an alternative, but at the end of the day your word should be the final one.

[Deleted Member]

46 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

I'd consider at it from a health perspective too. If you're that uncomfortable to ask, will it get to the point that you withhold fluids/hold your bladder? I mean, hopefully not but, it could result in dehydration/UTI which will put a stop to play but ultimately cause ill health.
Good luck with your negotiations!

Thanks, CopperKnob. I’ve hung on until I’m practically jiggling up and down before now (and having to hide that, too 😂), but not enough to cause illness. It has crossed my mind to avoid drinking so much, but I haven’t acted on it. I like my tea too much!

[CopperKnob]

2 minutes ago, Lockfairy said:

Thanks, CopperKnob. I’ve hung on until I’m practically jiggling up and down before now (and having to hide that, too 😂), but not enough to cause illness. It has crossed my mind to avoid drinking so much, but I haven’t acted on it. I like my tea too much!

Ah, don't hide the pee dance!! Makes me chuckle everytime i do it/see someone doing it

[Deleted Member]

51 minutes ago, gemini_man said:

It's a difficult one - on the one hand it's a pre-negotiated thing, albeit one agreed to on your part with an element of newness/naivety behind it, so I can understand both sides - on the other hand it's a basic human function and one not always easily controlled and therefore a degree of flexibility is required.

It may also depend on how this actually plays out - is it you only have to ask his permission when in his presence? Which is what you seem to have indicated by saying you wait till he's gone out.

Ultimately though, and regardless of all that, if it makes you feel uncomfortable this shouldn't even be about re-negotiating anything, or him giving his permission to stop doing so - it should be as simple as you telling him you'll no longer be asking his permission to go to the toilet because it makes you feel uncomfortable and that should be an end to it.

Sure talk it through if necessary, even offer an alternative, but at the end of the day your word should be the final one.

Thanks for your comment, Gemini man. Yes, it’s only when we’re together, but we spend a lot of time at each other’s homes.  
 

An added, if not common, complication is that I suffer from IBS occasionally. Having to pause to ask permission hasn’t resulted in disaster yet, but could mean the difference between making it to the toilet in time or not 😳

[Deleted Member]

4 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

Ah, don't hide the pee dance!! Makes me chuckle everytime i do it/see someone doing it

 

I’m not even aware I’m doing it sometimes. In fact, I only became aware that I ever do it because I was stood in my mother’s kitchen sometime in my 40s and she asked me in the patient voice she used to use when I was a child, “Do you need to go to the toilet, darling?“ 😂

[CopperKnob]

1 minute ago, Lockfairy said:

 

I’m not even aware I’m doing it sometimes. In fact, I only became aware that I ever do it because I was stood in my mother’s kitchen sometime in my 40s and she asked me in the patient voice she used to use when I was a child, “Do you need to go to the toilet, darling?“ 😂

My mother does it all the time and, i hate to say it, i am my mothers daughter 🙄

[Wo****]

27 minutes ago, Lockfairy said:

Thanks for your comment, Gemini man. Yes, it’s only when we’re together, but we spend a lot of time at each other’s homes.  
 

An added, if not common, complication is that I suffer from IBS occasionally. Having to pause to ask permission hasn’t resulted in disaster yet, but could mean the difference between making it to the toilet in time or not 😳

All the more reson it would be a limit, for me.

[ge****]

56 minutes ago, BountyHunter said:

All the more reson it would be a limit, for me.

Couldn't agree more - I don't suffer from IBS, but have known people that do, but I do suffer from sudden and unexpected urges to go so for me it would be a limit if anyone sought to impose it on me.

I'd add that having re-read the exchange in the OP - his desire for "asking for permission" is, in his words, "not specifically the toilet part" therefore surely the right thing to do would be to find something else to replace it, rather than taking the "Then it stays" approach - appreciate he's said it can be discussed further face to face, but surely the right thing to do would have been to say "OK asking for permission to go to the toilet is no longer required, but we'll discuss what to replace it with face to face next week - give some thought to what that could be."

[Deleted Member]

1 minute ago, gemini_man said:

Couldn't agree more - I don't suffer from IBS, but have known people that do, but I do suffer from sudden and unexpected urges to go so for me it would be a limit if anyone sought to impose it on me.

I'd add that having re-read the exchange in the OP - his desire for "asking for permission" is, in his words, "not specifically the toilet part" therefore surely the right thing to do would be to find something else to replace it, rather than taking the "Then it stays" approach - appreciate he's said it can be discussed further face to face, but surely the right thing to do would have been to say "OK asking for permission to go to the toilet is no longer required, but we'll discuss what to replace it with face to face next week - give some thought to what that could be."

Thank you for that. You echo my thoughts exactly but, being a newbie, I wanted to know I wasn’t being unreasonable in the context of the D/s thing. 

[ge****]

6 minutes ago, Lockfairy said:

Thank you for that. You echo my thoughts exactly but, being a newbie, I wanted to know I wasn’t being unreasonable in the context of the D/s thing. 

I don't see the slightest thing that is unreasonable in anything you've said here - just because you are submissive doesn't mean you don't have a voice, opinions and indeed choices and doesn't mean you can't change your views on things either - to use an extreme example if you agreed to try CNC but found it wasn't for you, you shouldn't be expected to do it again because you agreed once, this is no different.

You've expressed your feelings to him clearly and concisely in a balanced way and he should respect them, or at least agree to suspend them until you've had a chance to discuss further and you are comfortable to put them back in place (which may be never).

[ol****]

@Lockfairy, if you don't like it then it should stop. it can easily be replaced with something that works for borh of you. 

Can't see how it would work for little you anyway. I'm more familiar with "Daddy I need to pee" from a little.

[Mmmay]

I appreciate this conversation. Especially the verbatim discussion. I am also interested in the secret control drama. Please let us know the outcome. Thank you for your vulnerability around your sneaking.

[Ho****]

The corner stone of BDSM is consent. You clearly withdrawn your consent on this part of you relation with your dom. Which you are entirely entitled to.

I might sound judgemental, but your dom cannot brush aside your "request" to withdraw consent to have ask permission to go to the toilet and say we will discuss it later.

He should immediately knowledge it and agree to remove this from your rules immediately. Then he can agree to discuss more in depth the effect it had on you and if the rule has to be replaced or not and by which rule at a later date.

Very nice post well written. I really like how you expresed your point to your dom in a very polite, respectful and constructive manner.

I think for new subs should read your post to see how to address to your dom a concern or a request in a proper manner.

Thank you for sharing so candidly.