Subs or Doms, who has the control?

[miss_subalicious]

So following a discussion in the lobby earlier I made the throw away comment that the control really lies with the sub. Which was opposed by a few on there. This then sparked mass debate in my own head so thought I’d write it down and reflect! Would love to hear others thoughts and views also 👍🏻

I am still fairly new to BDSM but I guess I had always thought this: That the sub sets the hard limits, and even if the choice is to relinquish all control, that it is still given initially and thus can be taken back.

A D/s relationship however, in my mind, is no different to any other, in that it is a partnership and so is a give/take on both parts. 

I guess there are ways the Dom exerts the control in a way where the sub has no choice or control, even to stop- denial for example. 

So if the Dom, for example chooses to not let their sub orgasm. Who has the control then?

Sorry for the ramble, it just felt like one of those mini moments of clarity I wanted to share 😄

 

 

 

 

[Mi****]

Its a complicated subject but in my mind the D has control with the parameters set out during initial negotiations. The S has the power to stop scenes at any time but so too does the D. If orgasm control has been negotiated and agreed upon then the D controls when or if orgasms are allowed.

It all boils down to what you negotiate and agree upon within each dynamic be that a one off scene or an ongoing relationship

[Deleted Member]

A sub is always in control in my eyes they always have the power. Like you say D/s relationship is all about a partnership and give and take. But as a sub we set our hard limits and yes they can change over time but as a Dom they should respect that always. As with the orgasm denial you will always have your safe word to stop at any point like with anything included in a "scene" so that's how I see it hope that helps.xx

[BigPolly]

My opinion is that they are very equal. There are roles within the D/s dynamic when one or the other has the control or takes the lead but quite simply a sub cannot give their gift of submission if he/she has no one to give it to & equally a Dom(me) cannot be so if a sub does not give their gift of submission to them.

[3S****]

I think you find someone compatible, agree on boundaries, and then the dominant has all the control. That's how it works for me. Some people will let people top them from the bottom though.

 

Obviously like is said above anyone can stop anything at any time.

Edited January 25, 2019 by 3SumQueen

[Jed]

I think my learned friends have all good points to make, ultimately the balance of power should always rest with the D, as your initial consideration phase completes itself and you lay out the foundations for your dynamic your at the point where both of you are at a balance. It's from this point onwards how you both determine your path, and at some point you will reach a tipping point of power exchange. If you find yourself at this point you as the sub still have the ability to deny or comply, the very essence of what both D and s strive for in this power exchange is control but it's yours to give over and theirs to accept and maintain. For most out there it's finding a happy medium unless of course your in a 24/7 then there will be compromises and differences. The beauty of what We have in our community is the fact that each any everyone of us is different and with no rule of thumb it's upto You to decide your path. I hope this helps but like I say it's Your choice and Yours alone. Jed

[northern_dom]

In a nut shell, personally speaking, for me the control lies with the sub. As a Dom it's my job to push her but within her limits. She sets them. I must follow them. I must respect her limits at all times and if she uses Red or safe words no matter what I am doing I must stop. I personally would be ashamed to get a sub to use her safe word or Red.  The sub offers to allow the Dom to control certain aspects. The Dom can't just decide he is going to do that.  The Dom ends up in a position of power and control but that is given by the sub.  I do admit my ways and values are old school so something may have changed in recent years.  

[miss_subalicious]

Loving reading your answers everyone. Varied but also mainly of the same consensus. Xxx

[DominatrixSheba]

It is the sub. The sub gives their submission within set limits. The sub can take back their submission at any point. While a sub is in role the Dom/me has permission to treat the sub a certain way. I had this exact conversation with a 24/7 slave recently who was unhappy with his Mistress. I think they had both forgotten this fundamental rule. As a Dom/me it is very easy to get caught up in your own bulls**t and as a sub it is easy to believe that you are powerless but D/s relationships like this are never healthy.

[Cade]

Perhaps we should reconsider the vocabulary. The terms "control" and "power" seem too vague in this application, often meaning consent or merely self discipline (for which both the dominant AND submissive should be equal in). For the sake of this discussion, let's instead consider the term "authority", the question then becoming "Whom has the authority?" If the submissive give her authority to the dominant, than it's easy to understand the dominant is in authority - the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and en*** obedience (Google definition).

[Carnelian2]

Well, it is a consensual relationship and as part of that one party agrees to submit and the other to Dominate. How that plays out in reality is down to each relationship and dynamic. It is really as simple as the sub asking the Dom(me) for advice or a decision (he/she may already have a preference and may position it in a way that agrees with him/her), but in the end, the Dom(me) makes the decision and therefore is in charge. 

As I stated before, aspects of this will depend on the relationship and can extend to very specific areas and activities or the whole spectrum of day-to-day life.

[Deleted Member]

It's power exchange, both have power in different ways and within a dynamic that is exchanged between the individuals at play. 

And it's an individual thing too, some dynamics will be very centred around giving up control, others might be more about gaining trust or physical sensations...that's kinda the beauty of D/s.  You can tailor it for your dynamic. :)

[Deleted Member]

It's surely a mental thing based on personality and the dynamic in the relationship.

Maybe its also a trust thing as has been mentioned already. It would surely be hard for a sub to submit to a Dom(me) without a lot of trust between them. 

[ey****]

this came up on another thread - and I'm going to largely repeat what I said there.

There are lots of blogs that are good food for thought - I believe it was Miss Lola Ruin who wrote one called "Control - and the illusion of giving it up" 

How I see things is quite simple.

So as many have said above

the sub sets limits, the sub sets boundaries, the sub can stop at any time through safeword, consent can be revoked at any time.

All of the above is true.  Even in things like CNC there's still a structure in place.

However... all of the above is also true for the Dominant.   The Dominant has their own limits, boundaries, can stop at any time and withdraw consent.

A good relationship - both would have an element of control. 

[saphy]

I have a theory when it comes to who has control....well, not essentially my own theory but one I was taught during my time as a submissive. 

There is a method of your time in service to a preferred Dominant.

Within D/s, initially, either D or 's can make that first contact (a slave however, would wait to be approached and during that time will handle themself befitting to their chosen dynamic)....after which, there is a period of time (there's no set parameter) in which the submissive (note: not slave) HAS THE POWER to decide whether or not they have interacted with a potential Dominant.

On deciding, and of the Dominants acceptance, the submissive will be bestowed with a collar of consideration. This is ONLY if the submissive has made the decision to lend themselves to the Dominant. At this point, the submissive will be as pleasing to the Dominant as they would do if they were Their's, their servitude wills them no less.

Again, after a time frame has passed that has previously been agreed upon, the submissive will be presented with the Dominants decision regarding the process of consideration. This would potentially be the final stage of power for the submissive before they would essentially relinquish ALL control to their chosen Dominant on acceptance of Their permanent collar. (This would normally be done during a 'collaring ceremony, which would reflect Their control).

This is basic collaring etiquette and doesn't however, distract from soft/hard limits which should be discussed and adhered to during the consideration process. 

Not sure how many share the same learning lol things have drastically changed over the years!! 😊 

Edited January 30, 2019 by saphy
Clarification

[Ol_Sparky]

A wonderful article, well written and thought out. 

[bhanger]

To my mind, it is the sub who has control and that if a Dom does not understand this, then they are probably best avoided!

I could go on at length, but no doubt it would be too boring, especially as most of the points have already been covered by other posts in this thread.

[Deleted Member]

On 2/28/2019 at 10:39 PM, bhanger said:

To my mind, it is the sub who has control and that if a Dom does not understand this, then they are probably best avoided!

I could go on at length, but no doubt it would be too boring, especially as most of the points have already been covered by other posts in this thread.

in your opinion. 

all D/s are different. and some subs live happily controlled by their Doms. 

As said before once the agreements are set, the sub finally live full on her submission. Trust, care and safety control the relationship 

in my opinion 

[Tillysub]

I have a really unpopular take on this subject. I believe that the individual with the biggest physical presence ultimately has control and for me that is the Dom.

The sub may set the limits but the Dom chooses whether or not to follow them, of course any Dom worth his salt will follow limits but there are those that don’t. I have had experience of this and as I was being used by a Dom in a way that was against my limits and my will I did not feel as though I had any control of the situation..

[DaddyHurtsBest]

On 3/3/2019 at 9:26 PM, Tillysub said:

I have a really unpopular take on this subject. I believe that the individual with the biggest physical presence ultimately has control and for me that is the Dom.

The sub may set the limits but the Dom chooses whether or not to follow them, of course any Dom worth his salt will follow limits but there are those that don’t. I have had experience of this and as I was being used by a Dom in a way that was against my limits and my will I did not feel as though I had any control of the situation..

Now herein lies the crux of the matter, and honestly I think it's not just physical, one could simply have an overbearing character without the body to match, and still emotionally manipulate a person.

In my experience, in the vast majority of relationships, d/s or vanilla, there is always one party that has more control. What do I mean by control? Who is the person who decides if a relationship continues or not. For me, it would mean if there was a disagreement, or something wasn't right, who would be the person more inclined to leave, and who would be the person more inclined to stay and fight. Usually, the person who would choose to leave is the one in control, as they evidently feel like they have less to lose than the other person. So ultimately, I believe the control often lies with the person who values the relationship the least.

In a d/s dynamic, it could be either the submissive or the dominant who is in control in that sense. And the same person may be more in control in one dynamic, and less in the next.

Now this is all in the very ultimate/final sense of control, though it does display in day to day actions as well. However, within the tolerances of the relationship not coming to breaking point for the person who values it least, the question of who has control as others have said depends very much on the dynamic: Instead of saying what I think it should be, I'll give you three examples of what different power balances might look like, and hopefully you'll see that it could be one, the other, or both in control. In this scenario the submissive has repeatedly broken one of their rules after being warned of dire consequences:

Dom in control of relationship:

Sub is made to do things that the Dom knows they genuinely hate. For example: severe punishments, plus no phone/tv for a week, pushing dislikes/limits without any pleasure for sub, caged for a couple days, cold showers... disproportionately treated badly to make the point. The Dom knows the sub is unlikely to leave, so can push the punishments a long way to *** the desired result and adherence to rules.

Equal control of relationship:

Sub is punished, but taking it further than normal to make the point and to be accountable, then sit down after and figure out together why the rule isn't working any more and what to do about it.

Sub in control of relationship:

Sub is punished, but taking it further than normal to make the point. Limits aren't really pushed, and ultimately it's just a hard, long funishment. Rules haven't changed, status quo continues, sub can continue to break the rule, almost making it a transaction of punishment for breaking it. Sure the dom has set the cost, but they are clearly not the one in control, the sub just isn't deterred by the consequences.

 

Now of course these are just examples, and there are lots of other ways it could be expressed I'm sure. Equally each of those may sustain happy, long and healthy relationships or be toxic and unstable. My preference is to alternate between the first two, with Dom being in control as the default, but when there are endemic/recurrent/serious problems I find it best to bring everyone to a level plane to talk about things rationally.

What do you think?

[Carnelian2]

I think this was a long response, but the fact that I read all of it is also evidence that it was well thought out and considerate. I like the scenarios and certainly have my own view on what works best. It is about balance and mutual growth

[ey****]

I think a very simple way to think of things

if the Dominant is not happy, they will leave.

if the sub is not happy, they will leave.

If the party who is not happy CANNOT leave then it's not BDSM it's ***.

-

There are relationships I've seen or know where the Dominant will pretty much specifically make the submissive do things they don't like.  However, refer to points above.  It's very context specific to relationships and this would be some people's idea of heaven and others idea of Hell.  

[3S****]

On 2/28/2019 at 10:39 PM, bhanger said:

To my mind, it is the sub who has control and that if a Dom does not understand this, then they are probably best avoided!

I could go on at length, but no doubt it would be too boring, especially as most of the points have already been covered by other posts in this thread.

I wanted someone who let me have all the control, obviously i needed to be with someone whose boundaries were compatible with mine. I hate being topped from the bottom or manipulated and made this clear from the start. It's very rare i find men who say they are up for anything and actually are, or they genuinely want to please their partner, but they do exist.

The above is why i need a lot of communication also because sometimes people want to do things that are harmful to themselves and i don't want to cause psychological damage.

[TickleMeWhiteauthor]

The thing is if your stated position is 'you don't allow topping from  the bottom', there is always the risk of heading into *** territory. On the other hand if the dom is there merely to carry out fantasies of the sub within strictly defined limits, then who is domming who?

Difficult?

[Deleted Member]

13 hours ago, TickleMeWhiteauthor said:

The thing is if your stated position is 'you don't allow topping from  the bottom', there is always the risk of heading into *** territory. On the other hand if the dom is there merely to carry out fantasies of the sub within strictly defined limits, then who is domming who?

Difficult?

a sub still can challenge her Dom, it doesnt mean topping him up, it happens for some and this is why sometime the sub doesnt carry on the D/s because the Dom failed to control the dynamic. If he cant keep her under submission the contract is breached. 

Limits are a bit like law, there are there to en***d the security, the safety of the sub, it doesnt take the authority away from the Dom? 

if you go to the dentist and you gave conscent to do some works in your mouth, you trust him hes not going to pull the wrong teeth or more than he needs?? 

while a Dom could push some boundaries a hard limits is the wall he cant knock down without a consent.

You cant diminish our role just because an agreement has been signed by both parties at the start of the relationship.

I have been lucky to have some subs who wanted to try most kinks, except for the same limits as me.