References… is there a need?

[Se****]

I’ve been pondering recently about the use of references within the BDSM “community” and whether or not they serve a purpose? I’m genuinely interested in others opinions, practices, preferences and a discussion around the topic.

• Does no references equal bad Dom/sub (insert own title) or vice versa?

• What about persons new to the scene? How do they gain “references” if persons wouldn’t play with them because they have no previous references?

• Is it weird to offer or ask for references?

• Is the community so small and intertwined that people know who to avoid etc?

• What about bad references or badmouthing be it true or false?

• Does it take the “fun” out of things and make the whole process more like a job interview?

• Is it possible the person(s) supplying the reference could have been coerced or threatened into giving positive references?

• Is it possible that those with “good standing” in the community receive erroneously good references because of the assumption that they’re well known?

For context I can see both sides of this and the positives and negatives or references.

I have only ever had contact with one Dom who offered references (without me asking) and have never asked for any from anyone else. To be fair that same Dom also gave me his full name, date of birth, address and car reg and offered photographic proof of ID (I didn’t accept this) prior to a meet for my safety. In the long run none of this prevented what ultimately happened, but that’s another story.

Yet I’ve spoke with others with whom I’d like to be able to verify that what they’re saying is true - for example the ones who say “I was speaking with… but I ended it because…” or the ones who seem too good to be true but don’t give enough “vibes” for total red flags.

Hopefully I will get some good discussion and view points/opinions on this topic as I am genuinely interested in what people have to say.

Love,

X

 

[Deleted Member]

Sometimes it can be useful - but it depends upon the circumstances... It's worth noting that outside of pros, s-types (those who submit) are often reluctant to give former partners references and even when they are willing to provide references - they often don't provide up-to-date contact details for very long to their former D-type partners. So, it might be better to test a D-types knowledge of BDSM safety, consent, etc.

[Do****]

I have offered to give references to my partners. Which only one took me up on it. I believe it’s a good gesture. I have never gotten any negative responses for it.

[UK****]

I have in the past offered references.  Nobody ever took them up, so I stopped offering.

[Hy****]

There’s a weird unsaid question about interpersonal Interaction. when said, it’s so abstract that it defeats the purpose of having it in the first place:
What do I have to do to demonstrate that I am worthy of your trust (or at least desire)?
Guys, don’t say this on the date. I’ve tried it a few times, it never fucking works.
Remember the early 2000s when pick-up artistry was the name of the game to an entire generation of Internet manbabies that hadn’t touched grass in their entire life?
Most of those guys either stayed and never got laid, or moved on and did, But for a brief time, some of those guys got a little more game than they would have otherwise, because pick up artistry was largely about mimicking confidence, and thereinby power.

This checklist you have made is a conglomerate of questions about navigating a largely societally ostracized space. If you take every single one of your questions seriously and answer in the most conservative capacity? Generally? They will keep you safe. You also have a very difficult time getting laid if you are a man and you use these rules. As a woman, you have a little more leeway. A little.

I’ve been doing this a while. I find the people that are absolutely obsessed about Security really aren’t ready to date. There’s a degree of risk that comes in dating in a lot of navigating it Hass to do with your intuition about whether somebody is both good for you and safe.

BDSM lifestyle is risky inherently because the games we play have stakes. If they don’t have stakes, it stops being BDSM. It becomes vanilla and then why the fuck are we here in the first place?
Yes, there is some validity that people that are well-connected in sites like fetlife have a higher chance of at the very least not being stalkers. The best thing you can do to protect yourself from narcissistic dominance is to study *** tactics. Gaslighting. Love bombing. Isolation. Anger displays. Avoidant attachment behavior that is at least not self aware. If you learn these, it will do a lot more to both open you up to non-lifestyle possibilities that may be untapped partners that have a lot of promise, and established but abusive partners who your checklist doesn’t cover completely.

[ey****]

it depends on context

in ways, of course someone new wouldn't have references - but that's fine, they're new and presumably not pretending to be super experienced

when asking for references, it's also important it's someone you trust or can verify yourself.  Mind, one flaw - if someone has had 2 play partners and one accused them of a consent *** and the other was fine, they're going to point you to the one that was fine and/or try to discredit the other

there is the trap with some with goodstanding is that people feel they wouldn't be believed if they raise a complaint, but that's an issue for another day

it's always best to get mixed perspectives if you're going this route because some people have grievances and some are bias with friendship - whatever you do, final call still has to come to you.

on another site, there used to be a local group called 'pleased to meet you' and it was the most shittiest blowing-smoke-up-arse bullshit I've known.  Because for example someone would start a thread about another user and write nice things about them and then others would join in.  But, if say, someone had been accused of something and it wasn't believed - people would double down the smoke-up-arse comments - and it was.... hmm

and also, two ways - people grow, people change.  I might be someone's friend in 2020 and they write nice things about me, but then I could be a dick and we've fallen out by 2024 - written reference still says I'm lovely.  And equally, we've probably all, at some point, been in the wrong and we kinda grow from that (I hope) which can leave it a little unfair if someone were to cling to something even if their experience is valid.   Of course, the "been in the wrong" depends on context also.  

[Deleted Member]

Pardon me for jumping into your discussion here. I believe that asking for or providing a reference doesn't really work in BDSM or for what matters in the plain vanilla world. Basically there is not much of a difference between the two when it comes to getting to know someone. In the vanilla world you would not go around in, say a party, and ask people that interest you for a reference. I guess you'd run the risk of being looked at like you're kinda weirdo.
In the BDSM world I believe we have a bit of an advantage because we do already indicate what our kinks are and what type of counterpart we're looking for. As for my own part, when it comes to chatting with someone, I do give my counterpart "the benefit of the doubt" and expect the same from that person. If and when it comes to the first meeting, then it takes place on neutral ground and I recommend the sub/slave to arrange with some trusted person a surprise control phone call at any time during our time together. So far I have had positive feedback and have been told that this has built an initial base of trust from which to continue building on. To make a short story long: I don't believe references are such a help in building trust in someone. My two cents from Germany.

[CopperKnob]

Without reading the comments above, someone asks me for a reference, am I going to give them the name of someone I get on really well with as friends currently or am I going to give them the name of someone that I dated/was in a relationship with someone who I'm no longer in contact with?
.
If it were me doing the asking, I'd hope for the latter, but I wouldn't be holding my breath.
.
References aren't worth the paper they're written on due to the various bias' we all have.

[Da****]

36 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

Without reading the comments above, someone asks me for a reference, am I going to give them the name of someone I get on really well with as friends currently or am I going to give them the name of someone that I dated/was in a relationship with someone who I'm no longer in contact with?
.
If it were me doing the asking, I'd hope for the latter, but I wouldn't be holding my breath.
.
References aren't worth the paper they're written on due to the various bias' we all have.

I totally agree.... they arent everyrhing but they do help ***t a picture. My cynical work head would have me thinking - the worse they are; the better they behave outwardly to the people they're depending on to vouch for them.

Some references are good but they shouldn't be the end all. Having some honest curiosity and doing your own checks is vital and never ignore a red flag.

[ma****]

I don't ask for references. Also, I don't trust anyone in the community without getting to know them first. Do you know how much gossip is there? Anyone can say bad things about others. I live in my own world and I'm fine.

I choose to decide how someone is based on their character not what others think about them.

To answer to your last question: those "well known" and "good standing" in the community can get away with bad behaviours because those knowing them don't want to accept that they are able of doing anything bad. That's why I don't care what others (especially strangers) tell me about someone else.

[CopperKnob]

12 minutes ago, DaddyMcCheeko said:

I totally agree.... they arent everyrhing but they do help ***t a picture. My cynical work head would have me thinking - the worse they are; the better they behave outwardly to the people they're depending on to vouch for them.

Some references are good but they shouldn't be the end all. Having some honest curiosity and doing your own checks is vital and never ignore a red flag.

Meanwhile, at work, the worse someone is 'on paper' the easier they are to form a professional relationship/work with, at least in my experience.
I think we can sometimes forget about social graces.

[Se****]

I ought to have written after the first paragraph, prior to the bullet points,

”for example:…”

[GL****]

I have references! I thought I was the only one lol. In my experience… not many seem to care. It’s actually brought up jealousy issues in some cases. You would think a man with legit female friends and ex partners welling to tell their experiences with him would be desirable, but it isn’t in my experience.

I think ultimately people have to figure out things for themselves. Even Disneyland the happiest place on earth has bad reviews. Cigarettes have warning labels. Non of this stops people from doing or trying it. In my experience… subs don’t ask enough questions. I know for some, it’s part of their nature to not control the conversation, but if you let the dom ask all the questions you run the risk of them telling you what they think you want to hear because you are giving them all the answers. I hope that made sense.

[Da****]

11 hours ago, maryioni said:

I don't ask for references. Also, I don't trust anyone in the community without getting to know them first. Do you know how much gossip is there? Anyone can say bad things about others. I live in my own world and I'm fine.

I choose to decide how someone is based on their character not what others think about them.

To answer to your last question: those "well known" and "good standing" in the community can get away with bad behaviours because those knowing them don't want to accept that they are able of doing anything bad. That's why I don't care what others (especially strangers) tell me about someone else.

Especially their friends!

[Da****]

3 hours ago, SINrzDream said:

I have references! I thought I was the only one lol. In my experience… not many seem to care. It’s actually brought up jealousy issues in some cases. You would think a man with legit female friends and ex partners welling to tell their experiences with him would be desirable, but it isn’t in my experience.

I think ultimately people have to figure out things for themselves. Even Disneyland the happiest place on earth has bad reviews. Cigarettes have warning labels. Non of this stops people from doing or trying it. In my experience… subs don’t ask enough questions. I know for some, it’s part of their nature to not control the conversation, but if you let the dom ask all the questions you run the risk of them telling you what they think you want to hear because you are giving them all the answers. I hope that made sense.

Let's be straight about this... You can make your own mind up about how 'good' someone is all by yourself. What you're really trying to do by getting references is to check they're sane or safe.
'Are they an abusive twat?'
A lot of subs I've spoken to/been around have often been massive people pleasers. (over-generalisation, I know but largely true imo)
As a dom, it would be all too easy to stack up a few 'mostly happy' people as referees. But for a predator or ***r, a bad reference would either be written off as a jaded nut job or the person holding that bad reference would likley feel unable to tell their truth anyway because of how they'd been manipulated. Again, just my opinion but It's often the big elevated popular people who are central in the community that have done the worst things wrong too. Everyone makes mistakes and that's ok, but ***rs and violators must be rooted out. The tales of people going or doing bad things are all too often backed up by all the people who still believe in them. Even when the truth outs, there are still people who refuse to believe the awful truth and will defend a bad egg to the bitter end. And that's exactly what an ***r wants. To be normalised and be allowed to pretend like nothing is wrong at all.

[Se****]

So what about in the sense of merely play partners? Would anyone want/feel it necessary to speak with prior play partners to confirm someone’s “ability”? For example if someone wanted to tie you would you look at their previous experience and how they’d acted in situations?

Again just questions out of interest there is absolutely no underlying meaning before people jump to conclusions. 

[Da****]

If you ask everyone they had ever played with you would find a bad review - especially their first/early ties where they less sure of what they are doing. You'd be better asking yourself if this person is a good learner, if they're reflective and attentive.
You can do that in lost of ways besides referencing, look at their photos, watch them in public spaces, watch them interacting with other people. Hell just talk to them for 3 mins about their supposed specialist subject - I'm sure you'll soon get an idea of how competent they are or if they're blagging. If you're able to talk to previous play partners then that's still going to be worthwhile but take it as what it is; flawed humans telling their stories about things they saw and did. You weren't there and if you were, you'd likley tell a different story anyway - so hearing anything from others is still no real guarantee. A healthy kink culture/community should aim to leave doors open to ask for references or questions about previous play partners but were talking relationships here... the reality of that (Especially in more traditional / mono partners) is really low. A reference for a technical ability may be more possible I guess but to me all these references should never really be how good or competent someone is but if they're a wrongun or a goodun.

[GL****]

40 minutes ago, DaddyMcCheeko said:

Let's be straight about this... You can make your own mind up about how 'good' someone is all by yourself. What you're really trying to do by getting references is to check they're sane or safe.
'Are they an abusive twat?'
A lot of subs I've spoken to/been around have often been massive people pleasers. (over-generalisation, I know but largely true imo)
As a dom, it would be all too easy to stack up a few 'mostly happy' people as referees. But for a predator or ***r, a bad reference would either be written off as a jaded nut job or the person holding that bad reference would likley feel unable to tell their truth anyway because of how they'd been manipulated. Again, just my opinion but It's often the big elevated popular people who are central in the community that have done the worst things wrong too. Everyone makes mistakes and that's ok, but ***rs and violators must be rooted out. The tales of people going or doing bad things are all too often backed up by all the people who still believe in them. Even when the truth outs, there are still people who refuse to believe the awful truth and will defend a bad egg to the bitter end. And that's exactly what an ***r wants. To be normalised and be allowed to pretend like nothing is wrong at all.

I agree. I’ve made lots of mistakes over the years, but nothing with Ill intent. ***rs and predators should be rooted out. I think people on here actually do a good job with calling out people with questionable views, ethics or morals.

Having topics like this in a dating forum I think is amazing and helpful. I’ve definitely grown a little as a person from my interactions with people on here. We are all in this shit together in away. I’ve never been big into the whole community thing. I enjoyed keeping my lifestyle like it’s my own private naught little secret. Being able to express my views and thoughts on here once in awhile has made me more open to exploring the community aspect.

[Da****]

3 minutes ago, SINrzDream said:

I agree. I’ve made lots of mistakes over the years, but nothing with Ill intent. ***rs and predators should be rooted out. I think people on here actually do a good job with calling out people with questionable views, ethics or morals.

Having topics like this in a dating forum I think is amazing and helpful. I’ve definitely grown a little as a person from my interactions with people on here. We are all in this shit together in away. I’ve never been big into the whole community thing. I enjoyed keeping my lifestyle like it’s my own private naught little secret. Being able to express my views and thoughts on here once in awhile has made me more open to exploring the community aspect.

You don't have to send Christmas cards or invite us round for Sunday dinner but it's nice to know were all there for each other isn't it. Haha

[GL****]

1 hour ago, FatefulDestiny said:

So what about in the sense of merely play partners? Would anyone want/feel it necessary to speak with prior play partners to confirm someone’s “ability”? For example if someone wanted to tie you would you look at their previous experience and how they’d acted in situations?

Again just questions out of interest there is absolutely no underlying meaning before people jump to conclusions. 

As a dom, I don’t feel a need to ever talk to a previous partner. Who that person was for them, may not be who they are with me. Just like I’m not the same dom with every sub.

For a sub… I totally understand if they wanted too. I would not have a problem if they talked to anyone I have ever dated whether on purpose or accident. My ex wife has said I either made her mad asf or had her laughing her ass off. She had a dominant personality. We definitely clashed at times. She needed someone way more submissive than me to boss around out of the bedroom. She found that person, remarried and had another kid. I don’t know how they had a kid… the poor guy sleeps on the couch lol. We don’t always agree on things now but we co parent like champions and have a great relationship considering our rocky past. We can have a disagreement… and she gets to take it out on him. They have sub/dom dynamic they just don’t realize it. 🤣
I might be joking around in this but I really appreciate the guy. His patience is unmatchable and he has been an amazing stepdad to my son.

[ey****]

ultimately though, references is a form of vetting but isn't the only tool in the box.   I *know* there are people who I've spoken to about play who haven't asked me to provide references but have spoke about me to other people.  Obviously, there are some people might be more favourable of me based on friendships etc.  so it's why it's just a tool, not the whole kit.

With filming this does happen a lot where people will check who else you've shot with and will speak to them - but some of it is for peace of mind.  I know there are group chats where people have been mentioned and sometimes people have different experiences of the same person so this can also add perspectives. 

Like any tool in the box, it's knowing when it's a good time to use it and what else to use 

 

[Cl****]

Each person has their own unique relationship with another. There are some genuinely bad people out there, but they're usually found out - hopefully quickly. I've been very lucky with only one ex bad mouthing me. I was young then and had a far more caustic tongue than I do now. I, unfortunately, have a very high IQ which has proven to be both a blessing and a curse. I do not suffer fools gladly, which I am sure has cost me many of what could have been a wonderful relationship. My loss. I wear it. Other people's opinions mean little to me, as there is invariably bias involved.

[Ci****]

People insert themselves in the " community" that aren't necessarily welcome. It's a generic overused term