Disobedience during fights

[Deleted Member]

Hi, 

I'm in a D/s relationship for 10 months now. While I always try to understand and respect my sub (there's no pushing of hard limits or anything like that) and although we've had open communication and negotiation on our limits, sometimes he makes things really difficult. 

I quite often have to deal with his shouting during arguments, which is a no-go for me. I have discussed it with him, and he agreed to have calm conversations even when we argue about something. Despite the mutual agreement, in a heated discussion he'll still raise his voice and reactions from my side have always been in the range "You're shouting".  He'd then tone it down, only to start shouting again 5 minutes later. It's very likely that I tell him "you're shouting again" multiple times. 

Many times this has made me get very close to losing my shit, but I haven't because then I'd be doing what I ordered him not to.

Recently, during a fight my sub told me that he's okay with me Doming him in bed (he loves being bossed around in bed) and outside of bed when we're getting along together well, but he wants us to drop the D/s when we're fighting / having an argument about something. 

 

That really doesn't work for me, because I feel that I'm being told when to Dom and when not to. 

 

He's VERY keen at obeying orders in bed and also outside of bed when we're well together, the only reason submission bothers him is during fights. But it's not that I would give him any order during / after a fight other other than shut up or give me a massage after the fight de-escalated. 

 

When he first said that he doesn't feel like obeying during fights, I asked why trying to understand where he's coming from. The answer was that when he's angry he feels that he should be free to be angry and not follow orders because he just doesn't feel like following them. 

 

From my point of view, I believe that since he's more than eager obeying orders in bed and doesn't disobey when we're in good terms, the reason why the D/s dynamic bothers him is because it doesn't allow him to project his ego. 

 

I might be wrong thinking that, and that's where I would like your opinion on it. I won't accept turning D/s on and off whenever he pleases  (he's requested that in the past too) but I might be willing dropping the D/s dynamic altogether trying to respect the fact that he doesn't want to obey during fights. 

 

Have you been in similar situations and how do you think that this is best handled? 

[ey****]

It feels a bit - that there is some form of communication barrier on his part

Of course, emotions are valid.

But for example shouting during an argument isn't a healthy mechanism whether he is your sub, Dom, or vanilla partner.  It's not healthy.

There's something where he needs to learn to get his point across without raising his voice to shouting levels.  This is communication to work on.  

It may be in these moments he sees your Dominance as a threat and perhaps is asking you to turn it off because he knows it's not good "submissive behaviour" - when, in reality, it's not really a good way to resolve things sub or not.

[kb****]

I’m assuming you’re in a serious relationship with your Sub? This usually means the fight needs to be resolved before play— completely.

I had the same issue with my ex and in the end we broke up. Maybe it’s just me but the D/s dynamic works best without a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. I’m experiencing this outside my primary relationship tends to keep the spice up and I can stay in character.

When you are also dating the lines get blurred and it’s hard to follow the fantasy, as you’re experiencing because your other dynamics are coming into play.

[ge****]

Wow that's a lot to take in and there are a number of streams to it too.

Firstly, and most importantly, you need to put aside the D/s elements and look at the health of your relationship if you're arguing that much for this to have become an issue - especially if it's got to the point of him raising his voice that often - that's not a D/s issue but a relationship one, so perhaps taking a step away from D/s and working on your relationship would be a good first step - start by talking and communicating calmly and rationally about why you are arguing as much as you appear to be. You've not said what the arguments are about, but perhaps look at that for something that needs to be fixed.

Moving on to the D/s thing - it very much depends on the agreed parameters of your dynamic - from the way you tell it, I'm presuming it's a 24/7 thing for you both? If so then perhaps you need to consider that and whether it's working for you that way, or whether saving it for specific times might work better. Regardless of that though it's important that you *both* have an outlet for times you disagree - and that you can both speak freely when needed - maintaining D/s 24*7 doesn't have to mean that you as the dominant always has the upper hand and last word, but just as equally it shouldn't mean he can raise his voice as he seems to. Again it may come down to the source of the arguments, if they're over the D/s side of things is one thing, but if they're over whose turn it is to wash the dishes it's another.

I can understand though why he may not feel like "obeying" during arguments, when you disagree the whole D/s angle can go out of the window either intentionally or otherwise, so it's totally understandable that his submissive mode may be forgotten - especially if you're trying to exert your dominant side at times like that.

Perhaps agreeing to step out of D/s mode when you're arguing would be prudent, and to come back to my original point allow you both to focus on the most fundamental thing here....your relationship.

[Ki****]

There's been a lot of good suggestions in the comments so far.
The only thing I could add is; maybe have him keep a journal so he can write down his thoughts. This can help him express his feelings without resorting to shouting and also allows him to work out exactly what is upsetting him and how best to communicate it.
There's no guarantee it'll work, but it's worth a shot. Maybe you could keep one too. Writing down your thoughts and feelings in detail in a safr space can help you understand them more.

[Matttster]

It seems that he may not want a 24/7 Ds dynamic. For many kink is about “behind closed doors”. This doesn’t mean just in the bedroom, rather that you take on the role of the Top at times. Something to think about there, maybe discuss the dynamic/relationship a bit more.

Regarding the yelling, I agree with eyemblacksheep, it is not a healthy method of communication regardless if in a dynamic or vanilla. Especially if you say it bothers you. Mutual respect is important in any relationship, and if he is arguing that he should have the right to yell, that may be a red flag. But if he just wants to be free to voice his opinion and intends to work on yelling, that seems reasonable. “Learning” to not yell is difficult, it is a reaction that one cannot just turn off.

You may discuss punishments for if he yells as well. His yelling, when asked not to is disrespectful. Punishing him at the time will cause more anger and not resolve the argument. So something you would do at the time, but after the argument and things are settled. The more times you have to ask him not to yell, the more intense the punishment.

[re****]

I've experienced this a lot with different subs, if it's got to the point a fight breaks out, the D/s setting might already be screwed up by other things though. So try setting it as that the fighting is rather a symptom than a source of disobedience. It's your job as a Domme to not let it get to that point, as hard as it may seem. There's always a way to divert attention from conflict to something agreeable. In the end it's giving & taking from both sides of yours. Hope this advice helps!

[re****]

*try seeing it (not setting)

[Wi****]

Its best handled as you would an unruly toddler or a dog. Lay down the law, shut him out or gag him. Ensure that every time he starts to shout at you, there's consequences. He'll learn his behaviour does him no favours eventually.

You can drop the D/s dynamic but not when he feels like it, only in certain ro set situations (eg in public) where you both agree to relax the boundaries. Otherwise you might as well start telling him that you would like to change the D/s dynamic so he is in charge in the bedroom... he won't like that idea but its roughly analogous to what he's imposing on you now. Don't accept it as he woulnd't accept this.

[Th****]

Relationships have hard limits too. If you don't accept shouting, that's a no. If he doesn't want 24/7, that's a no. You can negotiate, but no means no. If you can't reconcile, time to stop.

[so****]

Sounds to me like a good ol fashioned bad relationship, period lol BDSM or otherwise. Bad arguing in general is akin to a hard limit for me. I hate arguing. I don't do it. I'll calmly have a civilized conversation & I'll even have civilized debates. But arguing? Nah I'll just get up & leave the room lol To me it sounds more like an underlying relationship issue rather than a problem with the dynamic. Just my 2 cent.

[AKA_Copper]

I think that disagreements/arguments occur in every relationship regardless of the D/s dynamic, no one can be on top form or agreeable all the time. How they're dealt with surely needs to be agreed dynamic or no dynamic with each parties needs taken into account, how its actually managed in reality may come down to attachment styles, maybe not
D/s wise, i think that for me, there would need to be space to have these types of discussions when one or the other is unhappy/***ed off. Again, for me, if i were not able to drop the S type role during a disagreement/argument, i'd feel that my voice isn't as important and that I wasn't being heard but again, it boils down to what are the agreements made within the relationship first, the dynamic second

[AKA_Copper]

Just to add, we use this at work;
"Behind every behaviour is a feeling, behind every feeling is a need and when we meet the need rather than focus on the behaviour, we begin to deal with the cause, not the problem"

[Ae****]

1 hour ago, sonofthunder777 said:

Sounds to me like a good ol fashioned bad relationship, period lol BDSM or otherwise. Bad arguing in general is akin to a hard limit for me. I hate arguing. I don't do it. I'll calmly have a civilized conversation & I'll even have civilized debates. But arguing? Nah I'll just get up & leave the room lol To me it sounds more like an underlying relationship issue rather than a problem with the dynamic. Just my 2 cent.

So sorry this is so long 😖 (and 😉😏😅) tldr - you shouldn't be shouted at, and he shouldn't be domed if he doesn't want to be domed, whenever that may be.

I think I have a different view from Thunserson⚡A normal healthy relationship will have arguments. That's what happens when emotional intimacy begins - it's a chance to heal past wounds. Holding space for someone losing their shit is a gift. It's not always a bad relationship :)

OP, maybe I've totally misunderstood but - I think your sub not wanting the dynamic during arguments is totally fine and should be respected. I'd stop anytime it's needed. He's a person, he has the right. BUT also!!! - he should be working on expressing his anger in a better way during arguments - in my view, it's not doming someone when I ask them not to shout, if it's distressing me. It's letting them know they need to slow down, because the discussion is becoming unproductive 😕 And maybe soon I'll react back etc, so it's not gonna go well. To me, this is not a dynamic thing, it's a 'don't stress me out, by yelling at me' thing.

During a fight though, being told to shut up isn't gonna go well in my view. Imho subs are dominated partly from a personal need, but also only with permission from them to the dom. If the dom loses the subs trust, the sub doesn't feel cared for etc, and permission evaporates - the sub is then actually fending for themselves 😔 The dom *was* the sub's carer, but in being told to shut up when the sub was upset, the dom has now become an attacker 😔 Dom's care is absent, sub's trust stops, and the dynamic is no longer mutually beneficial/enjoyable. I don't see how the dynamic can exist if the sub isn't happy. Both parties should always be happy in a d/s thing.

The dynamic is for fun, and mutual benefit, I think. In an argument, he wants to be heard, he's upset. But he needs to also respect that you don't want to be yelled at, at all. He needs to acknowledge that that's not ok, and to work on that for you. It'll take time. He's triggered when he's yelling, he's not himself, not in control. And you need to refrain from doming him when he doesn't want it. It's not the time for that.
All just my personal view based on what I *think* I've understood 🤷🏻‍♂️ 😊

[Ae****]

Ummmm okayyy - ignore that whole thing 👆 it's unnecessarily and stupidly long ffs 🤦😭😅

[AKA_Copper]

12 minutes ago, Aeonova said:

So sorry this is so long 😖 (and 😉😏😅) tldr - you shouldn't be shouted at, and he shouldn't be domed if he doesn't want to be domed, whenever that may be.

I think I have a different view from Thunserson⚡A normal healthy relationship will have arguments. That's what happens when emotional intimacy begins - it's a chance to heal past wounds. Holding space for someone losing their shit is a gift. It's not always a bad relationship :)

OP, maybe I've totally misunderstood but - I think your sub not wanting the dynamic during arguments is totally fine and should be respected. I'd stop anytime it's needed. He's a person, he has the right. BUT also!!! - he should be working on expressing his anger in a better way during arguments - in my view, it's not doming someone when I ask them not to shout, if it's distressing me. It's letting them know they need to slow down, because the discussion is becoming unproductive 😕 And maybe soon I'll react back etc, so it's not gonna go well. To me, this is not a dynamic thing, it's a 'don't stress me out, by yelling at me' thing.

During a fight though, being told to shut up isn't gonna go well in my view. Imho subs are dominated partly from a personal need, but also only with permission from them to the dom. If the dom loses the subs trust, the sub doesn't feel cared for etc, and permission evaporates - the sub is then actually fending for themselves 😔 The dom *was* the sub's carer, but in being told to shut up when the sub was upset, the dom has now become an attacker 😔 Dom's care is absent, sub's trust stops, and the dynamic is no longer mutually beneficial/enjoyable. I don't see how the dynamic can exist if the sub isn't happy. Both parties should always be happy in a d/s thing.

The dynamic is for fun, and mutual benefit, I think. In an argument, he wants to be heard, he's upset. But he needs to also respect that you don't want to be yelled at, at all. He needs to acknowledge that that's not ok, and to work on that for you. It'll take time. He's triggered when he's yelling, he's not himself, not in control. And you need to refrain from doming him when he doesn't want it. It's not the time for that.
All just my personal view based on what I *think* I've understood 🤷🏻‍♂️ 😊

Nope, you and I don't agree on things, something unnatural has happened, something's gone terribly terribly wrong

[Leisa]

Under every D/s dynamic is a relationship and the relationship needs to come first and perimeters laid out. The main points of the dynamic is communication and consent. He’s withdrawn consent during this period and by doing so you are now just two individuals in a relationship. I find your slant on things a bit off balance. What’s making him so upset that he’s not feeling like he’s being heard unless he’s yelling? People yell because they feel invalidated and that the other person, who they’re supposed to be able to trust, is not hearing and validating their opinions and feelings. Even in a 24/7 dynamic there have to be times where the dynamic is put aside so honest, open communication can occur. Refusing to do that to me would feel like in was being bullied into accepting whatever was being thrown out. The my way or the highway ultimatum doesn’t work. The majority will choose the highway because you are replaceable.

[Catsailor69]

Yesterday at 01:04 PM, CopperKnob said:

Just to add, we use this at work;
"Behind every behaviour is a feeling, behind every feeling is a need and when we meet the need rather than focus on the behaviour, we begin to deal with the cause, not the problem"

My own experience with those that shout during an argument, has been as you say, a need. Interestingly, managing people in my vanilla career and Doming in my personal life, I find it is their unmet need to be heard, that drives their behavior.
A simple,”I hear what you are saying, when you say…… without yelling, better than when you do. Will usually stop the yelling in it’s tracks.
If the yelling continues or repeats in the same discussion, I will simply stop and say, “we need to have this discussion later, when you’re not so passionate about it. I am done for now.”