Punishments

[ma****]

Punishments are used to correct negative behavior. There must be thorough conversations about what sort of behaviours would lead to punishments and what some of the punishments might be. It's not fair to punish someone for something they didn't even know they were doing wrong. Everyone is human, and they will make mistakes! They must be reassured that it's okay to be human and make mistakes, and shouldn't be punished for honest errors especially if they are new to the lifestyle.

Please remember that punishments should make the bad behavior less desirable in the future--not to damage anyone or hurt their feelings. Many people go too far with punishments, meting out consequences that are too severe for the transgression. Punishments must be clearly explained: how long the punishment will last and what it will entail and why.

I've read this: "I'll find reasons to punish you no matter the situation" - that's a recipe for sooo much damage. Punishments are meant to help someone grow; they are not meant to dim spirit or to lower someone's self-esteem or confidence.

Unreasonable punishments could be ignoring someone, degrading and/or humiliating them (unless agreed upon) and any other things that may tear them down or could be considered any form of *** (again unless agreed upon).

Before you punish someone, think if it's reasonable. If you punish just for the sake of punishing, take a step back and learn about the irreparable damage that you might cause by punishing just for the sake of punishing someone.


What are your thoughts on punishments?

Dominants, why do you punish?

[Bl****]

First we need to set the scene prior to dwelling on the questions asked and/or raised by the topic. What type of dynamics are we talking about? DomMe/sub? Master/Mistress/slave? DD/lg? Any other type that comes to mind? Based on that we would have a situation where an individual framework was agreed between consenting adults. That framework would also cover the topic of punishments. Which one side would see them as what they are, i.e. punishments, the other side would call them, rather cynical, incentives. The point I wish to make is that the punishment to be meted out for unwanted behaviour or misbehaviour is basically agreed upon beforehand. The Top shall dish out punishment within the aforementioned framework. Now there are dynamics, in particular when we look into CIS or DEBRIS based dynamics there the punishment may be meted out at the Top's discretion. Same for dynamics that are close to the so-called Gorean subculture, where lashing may happen just to show the bottom his/her place. To make a long story short: punishments are subject to the individually agreed upon framework.

[UK****]

50 minutes ago, BlackFlogger said:

CIS or DEBRIS based dynamics

CIS I know but I suspect not in the context you are using.  DEBRIS; googling find "domination enhanced beyond rule induced superiority".  Is that what you mean?  Could you expand on CIS please.

--------------------

Now in terms of punishment.   Many people seem to find it hard to accept they like/want/need something (say impact play), so they create 'reasons' to punish and be punished.  For example, school role play.

I think it's therefore important to also clarify what aspects of punishment are meant when people use the term.

However, I agree with the OP that those things need to be defined and proportionate and in line with the expectations of the dynamic that the two people are in.

[Bl****]

@UK_Knight CIS Stands for Complete Irrevocable Submission. It's TPE on steroids! And yes that is what DEBRIS stands for. Not for rubble.

[adrenalina75]

2 hours ago, BlackFlogger said:

@UK_Knight CIS Stands for Complete Irrevocable Submission. It's TPE on steroids! And yes that is what DEBRIS stands for. Not for rubble.

What does DEBRIS mean though? The acronym CIS is pretty self-explanatory, but I don’t understand the DEBRIS one.

[Cade]

It's also good to remember that "punishment" is only ONE part of behavior modification (if that is why punishment is being used). It's important to rein*** positive behavior trends, as well as, deterring negative behaviors. I use a three up-three down system in my dynamic; for reinforcing the positive, I use acknowledgement, adulation, and then reward, and for deterring the negative, I use correction, discipline, and finally punishment.

Another good acronym to include in this is TAT (total authority transfer), which is also similar to TPE, although more complete overall domination and submission.

[Bl****]

2 hours ago, adrenalina75 said:

What does DEBRIS mean though? The acronym CIS is pretty self-explanatory, but I don’t understand the DEBRIS one.

DEBRIS stands for "Domination Enhanced Beyond Rule Induced Superiority". See also @UK_Knight contribution above.

[ey****]

things I like to thrown in on these even if some is stating the obvious

- not every dynamic needs, nor should have, punishments

- funishments are a valid part of play, but are very different to punishments - they often have a whole concept of sometimes acting up for a reaction

- yep as above, where punishments are used for behaviour modification there also has to be positive validation to go with it - rewarding the behaviour you wish to see.  

- it is also important that punishments are relevant, proportionate, and is not *** hiding behind BDSM  

[UK****]

14 minutes ago, BlackFlogger said:

DEBRIS stands for "Domination Enhanced Beyond Rule Induced Superiority". See also @UK_Knight contribution above.

But can you expand on it in terms of what that all means in reality?  It sounds like someone almost made an acronym and found words to suit.  DEBRIS isn't something I have come across and I am not sure from the expansion that I could know for sure where punishment fits and how it differs from punishments that may be part of any other power exchange dynamics.

[Bl****]

@UK_Knight and all who wondered what this acronym monster actually represents. In a few simple words: it is like CIS, however, the bottom has the right to rescind the agreement or "contract". All activities within the duration of the agreement were initially consented to. It's an "all in or out" version. I hope this was an acceptable explanation from a non-native English speaker.

[UK****]

Any non-native speaker gets my respect.  It's hard enough understanding all of this in a native language :-)

 

Ok, so "all in all out", I get in principle, so the dom/me decides (full stop) the sub either accepts or leaves.

 

So back to the original OP and how proportionate any punishment should be, does DEBRIS change that, other than as always the sub can walk if the dom does something they don't agree with? 

[adrenalina75]

1 hour ago, BlackFlogger said:

DEBRIS stands for "Domination Enhanced Beyond Rule Induced Superiority". See also @UK_Knight contribution above.

I said I had read the acronym and what it stands for. What I asked was what that actually entailed.

[Bl****]

57 minutes ago, BlackFlogger said:

@UK_Knight and all who wondered what this acronym monster actually represents. In a few simple words: it is like CIS, however, the bottom has the right to rescind the agreement or "contract". All activities within the duration of the agreement were initially consented to. It's an "all in or out" version. I hope this was an acceptable explanation from a non-native English speaker.

@adrenalina75 , see my previous post. I tried to explain there.

[UK****]

3 minutes ago, BlackFlogger said:

@adrenalina75 , see my previous post. I tried to explain there.

ok, so if I understand what you said there, whilst it is all in or all out, prior to being 'in' the limits are agreed?  So if a sub/slave said "this is the extent of any punishment", those statements would be respected?

[Bl****]

That would be my understanding. However, although I know the theory, I could not speak out of my own experience. Nevertheless it would seem to me that it depends on the people involved and their agreed framework to what extent punishment is involved and whether different levels of severity would be applied.
Now if "impact play" aficionados are involved, what would then be an appropriate punishment? Tickling? If the people involved want to apply principles from the "Gorean subculture", then a lashing may be dished out, just because Top wishes to show bottom his/her place.
In summary: even in CIS or DEBRIS the variations seem to me infinite.

[Do****]

Total communication is the key to this
1 the top explaining what is expected and how to express what is expected
2 the bottom listening and talking about what is expected of them and explaining their understanding of what is expected of them
Thus both of these put together and the talking about everything there should be no reason to have to give out major punishments

[ma****]

5 hours ago, Cade said:

It's also good to remember that "punishment" is only ONE part of behavior modification (if that is why punishment is being used). It's important to rein*** positive behavior trends, as well as, deterring negative behaviors. I use a three up-three down system in my dynamic; for reinforcing the positive, I use acknowledgement, adulation, and then reward, and for deterring the negative, I use correction, discipline, and finally punishment.

Another good acronym to include in this is TAT (total authority transfer), which is also similar to TPE, although more complete overall domination and submission.

Absolutely. Punishments don't need to be part of every dynamic since not everyone has got similar ways of learning or modifying their behaviour.

[ma****]

5 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

things I like to thrown in on these even if some is stating the obvious

- not every dynamic needs, nor should have, punishments

- funishments are a valid part of play, but are very different to punishments - they often have a whole concept of sometimes acting up for a reaction

- yep as above, where punishments are used for behaviour modification there also has to be positive validation to go with it - rewarding the behaviour you wish to see.  

- it is also important that punishments are relevant, proportionate, and is not *** hiding behind BDSM  

Funishments are very valid of course, but as you mentioned they are very different to punishments. The issue occurs when people don't know the difference and, because of it, they might create damage in long term instead of fulfilment and pleasure.

You're absolutely correct: punishments don't have to be part of every dynamic since punishments don't work for some people and that's okay. The same goes for certain punishments working for some, yet not working for another.

[Fa****]

Punishment for behaviour modification is something I’m extremely interested in. I’m very self derogatory and I do actually wish I liked myself more/treated myself better. In an “ideal world/parallel universe” I would belong to my Dom and would be punished/reprimanded if I were derogatory about myself because I’d be being rude/offensive about his property. Does that make sense? (Not sure if ads to the conversation).

I definitely think that punishment (or sometimes simply the threat thereof) can be an important element within a dynamic/relationship but I strongly agree that punishment for the sake of it (unless expressly agreed) is a recipe for disaster. How on Earth am I supposed to improve myself/be better/know when I’m doing something right/wrong if I’m punished erratically?!

I have never actually received punishment (😇) but have had the threat of it modify my behaviour. The threat being that if I kept deleting text messages (to him) he would cease communicating with me. That was nearly 2 years ago, I’ve never deleted another message since 🙄. 

[adrenalina75]

7 hours ago, maryioni said:

Absolutely. Punishments don't need to be part of every dynamic since not everyone has got similar ways of learning or modifying their behaviour.

And not everyone needs to learn or modify their behaviour. There are many ways to practise BDSM

[Ve****]

If there is punishment and explanation why but no information on what the correct/better way is (you need to find out yourself). Would you see that as problematic or is it a way to make the lesson more thorough?
Is this a greyzone or a nogo?

[ey****]

1 minute ago, VeeTee said:

If there is punishment and explanation why but no information on what the correct/better way is (you need to find out yourself). Would you see that as problematic or is it a way to make the lesson more thorough?
Is this a greyzone or a nogo?

I feel - think like training a pet, or raising a child.  

It's unfair to punish for something the other person didn't know was wrong.   If the person doesn't know what they did wrong, or things are inconsistent or disproportionate it can create *** (and not in a good way) rather than learning/growth.  

Just for the sake of argument here, I'm not condoning physical *** against an *** or minor - but I guess for example if your kid doesn't do chores one night then taking a playstation off them for a month might seem disproportionate, especially if they didn't know there were chores needed doing. 

[Bl****]

9 minutes ago, VeeTee said:

If there is punishment and explanation why but no information on what the correct/better way is (you need to find out yourself). Would you see that as problematic or is it a way to make the lesson more thorough?
Is this a greyzone or a nogo?

If punishment is given without explanation on why or how punishment shall be avoided in future, then punishment appears to be senseless and without corrective effect. For me a clear "no way, José!".

[Ve****]

My scenario has the explanation „If there is punishment and explanation why…“ but no information on how to correct.
Sub needs to find the correct behavior himself.
This is slightly different but makes quite a difference imho. So, my question stands.

[ey****]

WHY is there no information on how to correct?

I'd need a specific example