Punishments

[Ve****]

Consider the following: in all our scenarios sub try’s to avoid the negative rein***ment/punishment (not talking about funishment) but if it is up to him/her to find the correct way it is an internal process and thus faster and deeper learned.
The problem arises when sub for whatever reason doesn’t find the correct way and is stuck with not beeing able to avoid the negative rein***ment.
If he/she finds the correct way just the absence of the negative rein***ment is enough to see this as a positive rein***ment.
Problem is that this works the better the harsher the punishment. And this is why I think it’s a darker greyzone.
@BlackFlogger: thanks

[ma****]

45 minutes ago, VeeTee said:

My scenario has the explanation „If there is punishment and explanation why…“ but no information on how to correct.
Sub needs to find the correct behavior himself.
This is slightly different but makes quite a difference imho. So, my question stands.

"Sub needs to find the correct behaviour himself." - that means that he's set for failure. If he already knows that he has to behave certain ways, then he doesn't need to be reminded. However, if he has got no clue on what kind of behaviours are expected from him, then how can he find the behaviours himselves? It's very likely that he'll fail often because the D-type isn't capable of clearly communicating with their sub.

[ma****]

32 minutes ago, VeeTee said:

Consider the following: in all our scenarios sub try’s to avoid the negative rein***ment/punishment (not talking about funishment) but if it is up to him/her to find the correct way it is an internal process and thus faster and deeper learned.
The problem arises when sub for whatever reason doesn’t find the correct way and is stuck with not beeing able to avoid the negative rein***ment.
If he/she finds the correct way just the absence of the negative rein***ment is enough to see this as a positive rein***ment.
Problem is that this works the better the harsher the punishment. And this is why I think it’s a darker greyzone.
@BlackFlogger: thanks

If the Dom is not capable of offering clear instructions and communication, then they shouldn't be a Dom.

I'll give an example: The Dom instructs the sub to make their coffee but doesn't mention how they want their coffee. The sub makes the Dom's coffee, but the Dom doesn't like it because it isn't on their taste and then they punish the sub without informing the sub on how they prefer their coffee... then, they ask the sub again for another coffee...and the submissive again is very likely that she might do it wrong. Then, I can assure you that the submissive didn't fail, but the Dominant has failed...and the Dominant has failed badly.

[ey****]

35 minutes ago, VeeTee said:

Consider the following: in all our scenarios sub try’s to avoid the negative rein***ment/punishment (not talking about funishment) but if it is up to him/her to find the correct way it is an internal process and thus faster and deeper learned.
The problem arises when sub for whatever reason doesn’t find the correct way and is stuck with not beeing able to avoid the negative rein***ment.
If he/she finds the correct way just the absence of the negative rein***ment is enough to see this as a positive rein***ment.
Problem is that this works the better the harsher the punishment. And this is why I think it’s a darker greyzone.

in these scenarios - this is a failed dynamic : because the necessary communication is not there.

Like - "Make me a cup of coffee", "How do you like it?" - this should be met with instructions and that maybe if instructions are not followed that is a punishment

if the Dominant says "Work it out" - then this is set up to fail.  Because everything like strength, sweetness, etc varies from person to person. Someone cannot just quickly google or research "how to make a cup of coffee" - and given that this is punishment, not funishment, then the Dominant is looking for a reason to punish the sub which goes against the ethos of punishment.

Equally, if the instruction is "one sugar and a little bit of milk" and the instructions are followed but it's still not quite right, then that doesn't warrant a punishment because the instructions were followed, a "I like a little more/less milk than that next time" suffices.

Using making a coffee as an example because you couldn't give me a specific example.

 

[Ve****]

This is, as with everything about communication. „Work it out“ is obviously not a good answer. But „It was not sweet enough“ would be an answer that doesn’t give „the correct way“. So, sub thinks very hard how much more sugar he adds next time.
And it is an internal motivation, he does „the work“
He will consider lot‘s of things to avoid the punishment and yes, of course it will be very much trial and error (wich could be „fun“ for both) and it would sometimes be very terribly slow. But it all is subs internal process- much less thinking about if „the correct way“ is stupid or not to subs liking.
The problem with this is that if the sub doesn’t know in our example that sugar does sweeten coffee and thus cannot find the way. In that case the Dom should not deviate from the „not giving the way“ and this is a) hard and b) very difficult with communication.

This is developing into an interesting thing. I see all your arguments about beeing set for failure, difficult coms and what the dynamic is.
If a dynamic is built with such a system previously figuring out the pitfalls would be of great importance and having a way to exit gracefully too. I probably need to think about this some more.
An I might add that i see this more from the subs perspective.

[ey****]

13 minutes ago, VeeTee said:

(wich could be „fun“ for both)

we're not talking about funishments, of which that would be valid. But punishments.

Punishments within a dynamic are about behaviour modification to move away from things you don't wish to see - and - shape into what you do want to see.

If someone does something incorrectly, but is not given guidance on how to do it correctly, then the Dominant isn't upholding their side here. Punishments are not fun, they're not meant to be fun, and if you're setting someone up to fail to punish them then this ***.

(of course, setting someone up to fail for 'funishment' is entirely different. That can be mutually fun but that is not the purpose of this thread)

Edited May 4 by eyemblacksheep

[Ri****]

Just want to be cucked as a punishment so badly. Or have femdom water sport ***

[Ve****]

🙈you are correct i shouldn’t have written the „fun“ part.

[Bl****]

Punishment as an aid to achieve a desired behaviour should be an instrument of last resort. Punishment isn't always "impact play", i.e. whipping, canning, lashing, spanking. In particular not if that would be one of the favourite activities in the dynamic. Then it turns out to be funishment with absolutely no pedagogical benefit for the bottom. So punishment must be something that serves as a deterrent. As a Dom, I absolutely do not find pleasure in punishing. You may think that having a sadistic streak I should actually enjoy punishing. Well, no, punishment means also a failure from my side. It would be my failure to not have properly taught the desired behaviour to my bottom and achieved the outcome both of us wish.
The only form of punishment I try to avoid at all costs is ignoring my bottom. That would be the worst mistake from my side. Unless I tell my bottom that I will ignore her for a specific amount of time (max 3 hours) and religiously stick to it! This is between you and me: guys, that's hard on me too! I love having her around. But keep this between us!

[Ve****]

Quote

Is this a greyzone or a nogo?

I knew I was on thin ice from the start but it was interesting to think this through a bit. Thanks for all the inputs – very interesting and civilized conversation.

Personal thanks to @maryioni for starting this with a very clear view and good advice! 

Of course punishment is a last resort. And as BlackFlogger says there are other methods. And i can absolutely relate to everything in his latest post and yes I'll keep my mouth shut. 
If I'm not mistaken in psychology they say that positive rein***ment works better anyways. Are there punishments that do positive rein***ment? 

Hope there are other aspects coming up if there is more conversation about it. 

[ey****]

2 hours ago, Riley1998 said:

Just want to be cucked as a punishment so badly. Or have femdom water sport ***

if it's what you want is it really a punishment? 

[Si****]

I sometimes let my sub decide the punishment. I know that sounds odd but hear me out. 1, they have to chose a punishment that fits the wrong doing. 2, if they try to get a light punishment then they get two. 3, this makes them think hard about the wrongdoing and the appropriate punishment and this helps then learn why it was wrong. 4, delaying the punishment gives them time to make good and reduce the final punishment. A Dom knows when a punishment is hard when it ***s them to give it. Letting the sub know how ***ful it is for the Dom is in a way a punishment in itself. A good sub wants to be a good reflection of their Dom’s control, being a sub that makes the Dom proud of them. When they put the Dom in a position of having to punish they have let the Dom down and themselves.

[Fa****]

10 hours ago, SirGreen said:

I sometimes let my sub decide the punishment. I know that sounds odd but hear me out. 1, they have to chose a punishment that fits the wrong doing. 2, if they try to get a light punishment then they get two. 3, this makes them think hard about the wrongdoing and the appropriate punishment and this helps then learn why it was wrong. 4, delaying the punishment gives them time to make good and reduce the final punishment. A Dom knows when a punishment is hard when it ***s them to give it. Letting the sub know how ***ful it is for the Dom is in a way a punishment in itself. A good sub wants to be a good reflection of their Dom’s control, being a sub that makes the Dom proud of them. When they put the Dom in a position of having to punish they have let the Dom down and themselves.

Praying nobody I’m ever involved with reads this.

Brilliant idea.

But 😭😭😭 💔💔💔

[heka]

I have this fantasy of receiving a full *** punishment from my dom. Whatever he wishes 

[Si****]

19 hours ago, FatefulDestiny said:

Praying nobody I’m ever involved with reads this.

Brilliant idea.

But 😭😭😭 💔💔💔

I think it taps into my mental sadism. lol Things have changed somewhat in the thinking of Doms over the last 30 years. For most (well on this site anyway) it's all about them getting their dicks wet whilst missing all the fun bits.

[ma****]

Yesterday at 08:44 AM, heka said:

I have this fantasy of receiving a full *** punishment from my dom. Whatever he wishes 

You mean funishment?

[Rob-22015]

The psychological theory of operant conditioning that supports the concept of using corrective punishment for discipline has also shown that rewarding proper behavior is often more beneficial as punishment only dissuades from bad behaviors but doesn't always correct it to a desired behavior, this is why I tend to be a softer Dom. I would never punish a behavior that I hadn't already discussed with my sub for her to already know it was wrong before she did it, I would instead tell her what she should do giving her a chance to try again and reward that good behavior. Usually I will tell a sub what to do and reward her for doing it correctly or simply withhold a reward if she doesn't follow a command and have her grow by needing to continually be putting in the same level of effort for the reward and continue to push herself more as following my commands becomes easier for her.

[Si****]

I totally agree, I think this makes for a better sub as I prefer mine to feel pride and hold their head up. I like my subs to become confident and have a voice. The reward of knowing they are strong in themselves and are choosing to let go to me. I think too many so called Dom’s are using the BDSM name to *** and make subs surrender to their will through the *** of punishment. There is nothing more attractive than a woman who knows herself with pride.

Edited May 11 by SirGreen

[Msfergz]

To make me a better version of myself was his promise to me. Not to mould me into something else, not to just sexually satisfy self with punishment/tasks or scenes.
During an incredible personal stressful situation in my life, I was punished for not completing a task with origami. I absolutely hated it. But what I didn't know at that time, it was a method to get me to give my brain a break on what else was going on while I focused on this. I slept that night for the first time in weeks. Punishment isn't always black and white. What I truly believe is it's to benefit me