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"Tradition" and a closed mind.


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Posted

I'm a member of a Facebook group for kinksters such as ourselves, it's mainly North Americans but a few Europeans. A question was asked and I quote "with a Doms permission is it ok for a sub to choose her own collar" my answer? Of course if that's what the dom wishes. Wow the backlash ha ha, I do enjoy rattling cages. The keyword for me in that question is "permission'" so many attacked me for my complete disregard of Tradition and was basically told on this site we "teach" traditional values. Laughable and as such I responded in kind. Tradition yes is important but if we only hang on to the values of the past how do we become more, how do we evolve as human beings if we only look at the traditions of the past. Opinions please

Posted

I enjoy this notion very much!!! I find tradition, ritual, etiquette of the lifestyle very exciting and enticing. Interesting how your response was misinterpreted as your response rooted the power firmly with the Dom. We all seek to evolve, to grow, its natural and should be promoted even the most challenging parts of the journey hold such beauty.... the risk of growth and evolution is the diluting of the old ways, the strong hold that underpins the life we've chosen. However the deeper I travel down the rabbit hole, core values and ethics are what are the cornerstones to what we do. For me the promotion of these take president and are more relevant to live happily and healthily ūüĒ•ūüĒ•ūüĒ•

Posted

ooh, can of worms ;)

I'll post something properly later but for now....

Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people ;) 

Posted

It all kicked off Eyem, red rag to a bull I'm afraid ūüėā

Posted
5 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

ooh, can of worms ;)

I'll post something properly later but for now....

Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people ;) 

and as a lot of academic studies have shown mostly invented by later generations anyway, e.g. famous, in academia anyway, book by Eric Hobsbawm 'Invented Tradition' exploring how most of the great traditions invoked by those harking back had actually been invented in the 19th century to use false histories to justify the then state of affairs

Posted

as a straw argument - as I still not at my main point

imagine if I opened a new dungeon for events and parties.  I decided that I wanted this as a membership arrangement and upon having your membership approved the first thing you had to do on entering for the very first time was to receive six, hard, cane strokes from one of the staff.   With an argument somewhere that it "proves" you're actually into this - and if you're sub you'll bend over and agree and if you're Dominant then, well, this is to make sure you know what it feels like.

If we always did this with every new member then over time it'd become tradition - there'd be people who'd only ever been to my dungeon who'd never know any different and think all dungeons did the same and I could tell them this was a tradition going back hundreds of years if they were naive enough OR liked the idea of stories and history (even if it's made up)

Now, some people would think my rules were batshit and just wouldn't come to my dungeon

Some would think they were batshit and/or disagreed with them but I was the only dungeon in town so once they've done my silly ritual they can get on with using the facilities

Some would love this as it feels like initiation and protocol like they're part of something

Regardless.  So long as people do this it can be sold as tradition and a history is invented.  

Of course, some people will dislike this, argue with me and not come - but they don't get to use the facilities.

OK - now imagine again how much easier this is if there's no internet so nobody coming really knows any the different?

And then imagine internet later gets invented (maybe 10 years later) a people find folk don't do this elsewhere and instead of realising it was just me with an ideology - might feel others didn't properly respect tradition or were doing things some new fangled way?

Posted

@eyemblacksheep interesting, because for your dungeon it would be a tradition, you just neglect to mention to applicants  that your dungeon isn't that old, reminds me of the news items quoting records for the weather-often neglecting to mention the measurement is from a recently opened weather station.

So @Donnykinkster op, it could still be a tradition of the site, or the dungeon, initiation rituals often are.

oh and I don't think that would be such a bad rule if it was on the bare, but then I'm a cane slut, might help keep nosey journalists out lol

 

Posted

To be fair I've just had a other look and there are loads of comments agreeing with me. What bothered me more was the use of the word "teach". Please if you disagree I'm all ears for your opinion which I respect, advise all you like but not teach. I'm.not some child in a classroom. What I've found from this site is a lot of the North Americans( not all) are traditionlists and for me to not even consider another's point of view is a closed mind which is quite surprising as we are supposed to be so accepting of each other.

Posted

Teach: to impart knowledge or instruct..... I'd agree with an element of this, I like enable and empower more as each journey is so individual... there's a place to share lessons learnt but nothing does that more than experience so imparting and promoting tools such as discernment and integrity feels more apt to me and that's demonstrated in interactions and exchanges which we all contribute to ūüĒ•

Posted

I could not agree more Fire but it should be done with respect and a touch of humility, an understanding that others may hold differing views. Not a "it's my way or the highway" smart arse attitude. 

Posted

As as example of that I had something I wasn't sure iof yesterday so as I do now I went to Eyem. He didn't belittle my lack of knowledge, he advised and in his way taught but with the right attitude and an openness to debate if necessary.

Posted
2 minutes ago, Donnykinkster said:

As as example of that I had something I wasn't sure iof yesterday so as I do now I went to Eyem. He didn't belittle my lack of knowledge, he advised and in his way taught but with the right attitude and an openness to debate if necessary.

Perfect example,  I was going to comment further that "my way or high way" creates elitism which is something I'm very put off by

Posted

So - as promised, so more thoughts

I think as @Kymipoints above, a lot in tradition isn't all that traditional - if we think outside of kink, what we know as (say) Christmas is a combination of different cultures, religions, etc. And, it's almost like a cherry picked bastardisation of all of them.  

And a lot within kink/BDSM/etc is the same.  Except a lot of what people call "old school" or "traditional" has even less history than Christmas (despite both having thousands of years of roots)

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People have different dynamics and protocols and so forth. I feel we've discussed this on other threads - but your relationship with a submissive/slave is that they have "no" say in decisions (especially arbitrary ones like what collar they must wear and where they must wear it) some may have to submissive have to ask permission, which isn't necessarily granted, some may wish to keep things as a two way.

So in the original example.  If I was with a sub and they were to be collared then I'd feel perhaps a final decision could be with me, but I'd want their input into something they would be physically and emotionally happy with - likewise, the same if someone presented me with a collar then it's important I feel proud to wear it and can wear it as much as deemed necessary 

-

For other general examples.  It's often (and I hate to say this) older Male Dominants who talk about tradition and old school and theirs is from a cherry picked case of how things may have been for them - which, I guess, by definition, if as good as is said there should still be older subs who still subscribe to this and want to serve said Dominants and thus, everyone is happy, no ;) it doesn't matter if someone else is doing something different.

-

Incidentally, I know guys don't like gifts but there's evidence of men paying tribute to their Preistess in exchange for flagellation.... going back to 9,000 BC. So, that's a bit more old school than "subs don't get a say in their collar" ;) 

Posted

Hi Donnykinkster! I was wondering what Facebook group that you are a member of? I would love to be a part of it and I have some questions about how to start a new chapter in my life in the world of BDSM. I am very new to this scene and I would love to have your take on it. So can you please help me to better understand the inner workings of the BDSM community?

cautiousswitch
Posted

One could argue that in a "traditional" D/s relationship the sub doesn't get to make any decisions.  Therefore they aren't allowed to end the relationship and must be loyal to the dominant until the dominant decides to kick them to the curb - or give them away to another dominant.  You could really stir up a hornets' nest with that group if you pushed the concept.

Posted
24 minutes ago, cautiousswitch said:

One could argue that in a "traditional" D/s relationship the sub doesn't get to make any decisions.  Therefore they aren't allowed to end the relationship and must be loyal to the dominant until the dominant decides to kick them to the curb - or give them away to another dominant.  You could really stir up a hornets' nest with that group if you pushed the concept.

no that's not a relationship, that's ownership, it can be fun but only if the D provides 100% lol

Posted

I keep forgetting points ;)

*traditionally* there'd be a lot of discretion applied so people in a facebook group goes against discretion - they're using their real names (or breaking TOU - which would be a red flag being unable to follow rules) and discussing their sub - this certainly isn't traditional ;) 

Posted

But, yeah.  I think it's important - there can be a lot in perceived tradition which is important

But clinging onto tradition in a changing world... on one hand it can be holding onto something tangiable, you don't want to let go of - and that can be fine - but on another, as the world changes it brings new ideas and opportunities and doubling down too can see you left behind or left out.

(it's why I hate phrases like "like-minded kinksters" because there's such a variation of ideas that sometimes all that is in common is kink, and that's not very much)

Carnelian2
Posted

I think the key is to remember that the only "tradition" is that agreed between the two parties at the time. The fact that is has been done "in this way for 100's of years" means nothing, as without evolution we would all be extinct.

I kind of like the idea of a sub having input into the collar to wear - there are plenty of options out there, which the Dominant party cannot possibly think of, if he/she wants to admit it that is!

Posted

Well they clearly didn't understand what it was they wrote in the first place.. If the dom gives his sub permission to choose her collar then of course its fine.. Personally I like to have some input in my collar (OK only been given one) but I know myself well enough to know if I was given a style I hated I wouldn't want to wear it I would be so split, wanting to wear my gift with pride because hes given it with care but not enjoying what I wear as the style wasn't for me. Everyone has there own style and this can clash especially with a man and a woman I'm a girly girl I like pretty items most men don't get drawn to such items I do like a little input into such an important gift

Posted

The overall changes to the "scene" in the last decade or so have added a lot of revisions to the ideas of this lifestyle; one that hasn't completely trickled through the veteran crowd is that *everyone decides their own level of participation*. Of course, this is a tad out of necessity, as the not-so-fine art of self defining comes into play. However, the key to remember is a lot tradition speaks of history, in this case, the history of this lifestyle that many profess to live - a history that is being overlooked by the powers that decide if we, as a collective, deserve basic civil liberties. I believe this is because, in part, of tradition being lost and discarded.
This is NOT to say that you can't live your lifestyle in whatever way you desire. The vital point is to identify properly, I think - the consideration here would be: are you living THE lifestyle with its own history and methodology, or just your lifestyle you're defining as you go? Although neither is the wrong answer, the two are significantly different in regards to what you're trying to represent.

Posted

One of the things I have noticed as a sort of backlash to the newer waves of influence in our community is that some of us that define ourselves as 'old school' / old fashioned or in my case just plain stubborn.

This subsection seems to be very defensive against new influences and I personally have noticed that, although not always, they verge on a number of 'one true way' type behaviours.

Getting back to the O/P I think there is always a temptation in BDSM communities to view ourselves as special.

Yes I know you are, and you, oh you to and I know I certainly am. But seriously firstly we are all humans in relationships, dealing with lives, wanting a connection and some understanding, maybe even love

All the rest of this is the icing on the cake. Let alone getting your panties in wad over who does up what.

Posted

If it is the group I think you mean, I have noticed many times that "traditionalists" are very snobby and elitist when it comes to the lifestyle.

 

I want connection first, relationship second, and the kink and D/S side to develop after all the trust and groundwork has been laid down in the first two instances.  Due to this, I've been labelled on there as not a "true" sub.  

 

Umm...I'm sorry, I didn't realize that a contractual Master/Slave agreement was a stronger bond than that of a soul connection.¬† My bad! ūü§£

Posted
On 5/10/2020 at 1:56 PM, cautiousswitch said:

One could argue that in a "traditional" D/s relationship the sub doesn't get to make any decisions.  Therefore they aren't allowed to end the relationship and must be loyal to the dominant until the dominant decides to kick them to the curb - or give them away to another dominant.  You could really stir up a hornets' nest with that group if you pushed the concept.

That sounds like a dare to me ūüėā.

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