Freedom of speech and the responsibility that carries

[Deleted Member]

Freedom of speech, where should we draw the line?

 

I went directly into the army in 1985 from school, into a regiment called The Coldstream Guards, a racist regiment although I didn't see it that way when I first joined.. Up until 1986 there had never been a black Guardsman. In 1986 when I passed out, completed my training a black lad was in the intake of new trainees and that's when I realise how racist my chosen regiment actually was. There was talk(not from me) of beatings in the night, finding a way to *** him out etc.. I saw him but never actually got to talk to him. I made a point of following his career and yes, he passed out and was the first black lad to stand guard outside Windsor castle and Buckingham palace. This was my first ever real encounter with injustice based on nothing more than colour and it's something I will carry all my days.. It made the papers and the news as it was quite rightly something worth reporting and as trailblazers do it then opened the floodgates for others, a stand had been made. A brave lad I have no doubts and I can imagine how tough a decision it must have been for him and his family to decide to join this regiment when there were plenty of others he could have gone to and had a much easier time. Since then there have been many others but there is always a first isn't there? There has to always be someone who will face bigotry alone for the first time if we are to break the "cycle of hate.". If we had been in the same intake I know without a doubt I would have been his friend, I would have stood by his side as two things that really upsets me are elitism and bullies, they make me feel physically aggressive. I've always considered myself odd, the black sheep, a little weird and find myself drawn to those of the same ilk. I will always stand with those who i may feel are facing injustice even if i may not actually agree with their view because i understand the difference between right and wrong and the freedom of that person the be "them"

 

I've seen an attempt at bullying by a moron on a post about trans people yesterday so feel the need to vent as I thought it would not even be an issue, tolerance and acceptance being apparently something WE are supposed to be big on. I've learned from a trans person this morning that even here they still feel uncomfortable being totally open and honest, revealing fully who they are.. It seems I'm misguided and again have to assess what I thought I knew to what I actually see. It was the same on Facebook yesterday I ended up arguing with some silly bitch who kept telling me her view when I repeatedly asked her to explain her thought process behind this view. I didn't tell her she was wrong, not until the end any way when she got both barrels and then disappeared. I wanted to understand why she felt the way she did, so then I could debate with her and try and help her understand a different view but she refused to allow me by closing her mind. I have to say whether I agree with her or not I will up to a certain point fight for her right to say what she likes BUT only up to a certain point.

 

So J.K Rowling is obviously anti trans, that cannot be denied, do I agree with her? No most definitely not but I will argue the toss all day long about her right to that opinion, that's why millions died between 1939-1945, so she has that right to that most basics of freedoms, speech, but one more time only to a certain point. I was warned to be careful about posting from one whose opinion I value and she was nervous about getting involved in this matter and I can really understand why. Yet that warning was against my freedom of speech that I value so highly but again, I really do understand why. 

 

Yes we have freedom of speech but should we always exercise that right? No is the conclusion I've reached, not if that freedom is going to cause deep emotional *** for another soul. Sometimes words can hurt so deeply and it can have a profound affect on someone. It can and does cause them to withdraw even more, to feel even more sadness which is an emotion we all know can be so destructive. I've said things in the past and as soon as the words have left my mouth I've regretted it but that's the problem isn't it. Once words are out they can't be taken back, the damage is done. That kind gentle soul you may be interacting with suddenly feels less just from an opinion and freedom of speech. At times we should keep our opinions to ourselves, we should not use that freedom of speech because there is something else that outweighs that freedom, what is right and what is wrong. Human beings hurt, all have feelings and at times we I think rather than throw our opinions around maybe assess a little more how those opinions could cause *** for others and keep our mouths shut. Unless we are them how can we understand? Simple answer is we can't. I do hope that makes sense.

 

Today I talk not as a man.

Not even a white man

Not even a white,heterosexual man.

Today I identify only as a human being, something that makes us all the same. A shame we don't all see that more often.

[Wo****]

Freedom of speech... I may not agree with what you say but I defend your right to say it.

I LOVE talking to people who hold different views, especially ones like racism. I wanna understand why they think how they do.

 

Years ago, my ex and I lived on a static caravan site. Our neighbour was the most racist, sexist, homophobic, ***y everything "ist" He was built like the proverbial out house and swore like anything.

Absolutely not the sort of person I'd normally even talk to, let alone be friends with...

That guy was amazing! He kept an eye out for us, helped us out, dotted on our daughter and one time, before we moved to the site, he came armed with a baseball bat to help us remove our van from a site that had been taken over by "gypsies" (they called themselves that. They were rough, sinister and demanded my ex worked for them - he couldn't work as he was recovering from a broken ankle)

Our friend, he was prepared to physically fight to help us. He didn't need to. He just had a "little chat" with them....

My point is, Idk, I've strayed off topic...

Free speech...

I'd stand by it.

 

[Wo****]

Saddest thing I saw was a black woman holding a sign saying "our *** is red too"

 

I have long said that I'm ashamed to be part of humanity. Fuck! People really need to say that sort of stuff still?

 

[bi****]

Saddest thing I see politically today is Terry Crews saying "we're all the same" and getting a heap of flak from the anti-racist crowd. Go figure.

[Ta****]

I must admit Donny, I do like your writings .  They are so interesting they keep bringing me back. 

I saw the post that was written yesterday and yes, it is entirely ignorant and inflammatory. 

But apart from that, I have to say I have also faced  a certain type of prejudice on this forum for daring to be - as one poster put it - too ,'old' to be posting on here 

Regardless of whether the said poster was right or wrong, it is nevertheless within my nature to push my own boundaries beyond what some people may view as acceptable.  In other words, it's just the way I am, and it's not likely to change.  I later realised the poster was a troll who had had his account deleted, but that's beside the point.

When it comes to Trans rights, nobody should be judging the body and soul of another.   The kink community should be welcoming everyone, not just a certain set of people. 

As to Freedom of speech, it is something the law in this country allows us, but it doesn't say (as far as I know as I am not a lawyer) that we have the automatic right to exercise it!   

I shall end with the first line of an old rhyme.  But I wont post it all, as I do love to leave puzzles for Doms and,  you may well know it from childhood.

'A wise old owl lived in an oak,....'

Be nice to each other and good day.

Tammy.

 

 

 

 

[ey****]

56 minutes ago, bittenkiss said:

Saddest thing I see politically today is Terry Crews saying "we're all the same" and getting a heap of flak from the anti-racist crowd. Go figure.

Actually that's not what he said that has people frustrated.  And the reason people pushed back on him was because they felt he was distorting the message and giving ammo to racists.  "See, it's not about equality, they want to be better than us"

Edited July 1, 2020 by eyemblacksheep

[ey****]

5 hours ago, Donnykinkster said:

So J.K Rowling is obviously anti trans, that cannot be denied, do I agree with her? No most definitely not but I will argue the toss all day long about her right to that opinion, that's why millions died between 1939-1945, so she has that right to that most basics of freedoms, speech, but one more time only to a certain point.

I feel there definitely needs to be a line between "freedom of speech" and "Hate Speech" - JK has been flirting awfully with stuff that is, or should be, hate speech.

Also... the war in 39-45 was never about free speech.  It's important that for all the enemy Germany was ***ted to be then; the UK looked very enviously at their policies and growth and had proposed an alliance.  Imagine how things could have turned out then   The UKs involvement in WW2 was little more than protecting a political ally, in this case Poland.  That's it.

But anyway.

I saw a good meme today which simply read "I can accept others have a different opinions than I do... however I cannot accept beliefs that deny others people human rights"

And this is where we are in 2020 with large groups of people - transfolk, people of colour, so on who are treat like second class citizens at best and denied human rights - and no, I don't feel folk speaking against these are covered under "free speech".

[Deleted Member]

4 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I feel there definitely needs to be a line between "freedom of speech" and "Hate Speech" - JK has been flirting awfully with stuff that is, or should be, hate speech.

Also... the war in 39-45 was never about free speech.  It's important that for all the enemy Germany was ***ted to be then; the UK looked very enviously at their policies and growth and had proposed an alliance.  

I stand corrected, of course your right 😊

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, LazyPiratesBounty said:

Saddest thing I saw was a black woman holding a sign saying "our *** is red too"

 

I have long said that I'm ashamed to be part of humanity.

 

I'm starting to see why you would say something like that, we are not that nice a bunch and seem to be getting worse, going backwards

[Deleted Member]

34 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

 

But anyway. "I can accept others have a different opinions than I do... however I cannot accept beliefs that deny others people human rights"

 

That pretty much says exactly what I meant. Never too old to change our minds, the lessons keep coming

Edited July 1, 2020 by Deleted Member

[bi****]

57 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

Actually that's not what he said that has people frustrated.  And the reason people pushed back on him was because they felt he was distorting the message and giving ammo to racists.  "See, it's not about equality, they want to be better than us"

"They felt" - ie not what he said, but their interpretation (which I feel is a twisted interpretation TBH). I think his message was clear, but not good enough to the self-appointed definers of what racism is allowed to be these days. They also attacked the Morgan Freeman quote about not wanting to be known as black or white, which seems pretty sane to me, but not good enough for those who like to keep black and whites divided. Saying we're all the same wrecks their whole agenda.

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I feel there definitely needs to be a line between "freedom of speech" and "Hate Speech" 

Yes, again your right, that's the line i need to find but as the world for me has changed so much recently especially in lockdown, so has the line.

[Carnelian2]

I agree with much that have been said, in particular the bit about that once something has been said of written, it cannot be taken back. So, yes, it helps to think if what we say or write is expressed in a way that cause *** and therefore is counterproductive. I find that the choice of different words to express an opinion sometimes create dialogue rather than conflict

[Carnelian2]

I agree with much that have been said, in particular the bit about that once something has been said of written, it cannot be taken back. So, yes, it helps to think if what we say or write is expressed in a way that cause *** and therefore is counterproductive. I find that the choice of different words to express an opinion sometimes create dialogue rather than conflict

[Cade]

My rope mentor had a great way to sum it up: "Your rights end where they infringe, condemn, or negate anyone else's rights", and I think this is equally true with the freedom of speech. Of course, not everything is a freedom of rights consideration; for example, the personal responsibility of posting your opinion online (no matter what it is) is that you have to accept others will make counterarguments to it, by virtue of expressing their contrary opinion. This is NOT a freedom of speech consideration, as such, no one is trying to infringe your right to have an opinion by presenting the counterpoint for consideration.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Cade

[Deleted Member]

10 minutes ago, Cade said:

 This is NOT a freedom of speech consideration, as such, no one is trying to infringe your right to have an opinion by presenting the counterpoint for consideration.

Definetly not and again I totally agree. To be fair I'm surprised I havnt been confronted more. It's in many ways educational, for me and maybe for others. Much of what i thought I was is wrong, just about being a human, not anything else.

[ey****]

1 hour ago, bittenkiss said:

Saying we're all the same wrecks their whole agenda.

If you are saying "their" then that's a "them" - so acknowledging "they" are not the same. 

And we'll all be the same when everyone is treat the same.   You cannot correct 400 years of institutional racism in a fortnight.

[ey****]

What Terry Crews said that has people a little riled is that it's important that Black Lives Matter doesn't become "Black Lives Better" on paper that seems fine.

But, there's a lot of racist dog whistling who are trying to discredit BLM by saying "they don't want equality they want supremacy" with whatever flaky evidence that can be presented.

There are a lot of really good resources exist - and everything from something historical like Juneteeth, or a little more recent like Black Wall Street.   Even now, right now, a lot of banks are refusing some of the flexibility to black owned businesses in the US as they are to white owned businesses - meaning many are likely to fold.

And this is before you go through some of the trigger points in the recent protests; often associated with police brutality to the disproportionate way suspects are treat.   This is the point of the matter.

One thing to be careful of is that if someone like Morgan Freedom (who has since clarified his comments) and Terry Crews are those listened to when they seem to be critical of the movement but thousands of black voices are ignored then this is it's own form of cognitive bias.   

And you know - these were examples of freedom of speech - but they also come with the freedom to disagree.  As many did.  

[Leisa]

Freedom of speech. Unfortunately in the US a majority of speech is protected pursuant to the rights of the first amendment and the Courts support the right to hate speech.

[Deleted Member]

Mm, hate breeds hate. Hate speech not legal if incitement to crime, or oppression of others or single other.

[Phoenyx]

8 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I feel there definitely needs to be a line between "freedom of speech" and "Hate Speech"

There is a saying, here in "The States" (y'all probably have it over there, as well):  "'Freedom of Speech' does not include the right to yell, 'FIRE!', in a crowded theater.

7 hours ago, bittenkiss said:

They also attacked the Morgan Freeman quote about not wanting to be known as black or white, which seems pretty sane to me, but not good enough for those who like to keep black and whites divided. Saying we're all the same wrecks their whole agenda.

Interesting topic.  And, one hard to discuss, without ruffling feathers somewhere.  So please, bear with me.  Personally, I suspect that the "agenda" is perpetuated by the rich and powerful elites of this country (U.S.).  It is the age-old application of "Feudalism"---keep the underclasses fighting amongst themselves, so that they don't organize, and overthrow those at the top.

The real issue is income disparity.  This problem has gone far beyond any sane limit.  The ***ed elites keep sucking more and more out of the economy, leaving less and less for the rest of us.  In cities like San Francisco, a six-figure salary is now required, just to rent a crappy studio apartment, in a funky neighborhood.  Throughout this country, nearly a million people are living on the streets.  This doesn't include the millions more, of the working class, living in their cars, motor homes, or travel trailers (I believe that you call them "caravans", over there).  Tens-of-millions more are spending two-thirds of their income on rent.  It comes to a choice between eating, and having a place to stay.  Yet, not a single protest has been raised on this disgrace.  Why is that?  If there was ever a reason to rip this country apart...

There can be a myriad of reasons why folks have a problem with the BLM movement---many, that have nothing to do with "hate".  Here, in the U.S., the racial argument seems to be all about "White", "Black", "Asian", and "Hispanic".  One group though, my group, was actually here first.  This was originally our land.  Yet, we don't even get a mention anymore!  We don't even count, as the outsiders squabble over the spoils.  Should we?  Well, if you get the chance, do an internet search on "What is the poorest ethnic group in the US?".

As for the police here, they treat everyone like shit---unless you happen to also be a cop, or a member of the rich/powerful elite.  I have looked down the wrong end of police weapons, more times than I wish to recall.  It has been proven, that wealthy celebrities can literally get away with ***.  Even if they are charged, they can throw enough and high-priced lawyers at the courts, to simply walk away.  Look at O.J. Simpson.  Meanwhile, working-class folks often spend months, or even years in jail, for things as trivial as marijuana possession.  It is the best legal system that *** can .

9 hours ago, TammyNatalia said:

But apart from that, I have to say I have also faced  a certain type of prejudice on this forum for daring to be - as one poster put it - too ,'old' to be posting on here 

Don't worry---you're far from being the oldest here.  I'm not even the oldest.

As a final thought, racial issues have been called, "A great open wound in this country."  Well, my mom had advice about wounds:  "It's never going to heal, if you keep picking at it!"

Edited July 1, 2020 by phoenyx

[ey****]

1 hour ago, phoenyx said:

It is the age-old application of "Feudalism"---keep the underclasses fighting amongst themselves, so that they don't organize, and overthrow those at the top.

Absolutely.  It's the same in the UK also.  To the extent of the opposition party tried to throw the last two elections because they didn't like their own leader.

 

[Deleted Member]

16 hours ago, Carnelian2 said:

 I find that the choice of different words to express an opinion sometimes create dialogue rather than conflict

Words I accept I need to learn from, think a little more before pressing the "send"  button.

[Deleted Member]

9 hours ago, phoenyx said:

 "Feudalism"---keep the underclasses fighting amongst themselves, so that they don't organize, and overthrow those at the top.

 

Divide and conquer, if we bicker amongst ourselves we are less likely to see and rebel against the real puppeteers. This is something I've only come to see to be the truth the last couple of years.

[Wo****]

I hope it's changing now.....

Maybe enough of us globally are starting to say enough, we demand change.