Gender demographic of the scene

[Bl****]

47 minutes ago, liliththedivine said:

I highly doubt that dommes mean exactly the same thing as our male counterparts when we say we struggle to find truly submissive men.
Especially not me. I have absolutely no interest in initiating or imposing kinks; not only that, but it's the submissive men the ones who desperately bombard us demanding all kinds of acts from us. It isn't very abusive when it's them pushing boundaries and me blocking left and right, is it?

No, in that case, I’d say they’re the ones being abusive or borderline so

[cl****]

2 hours ago, liliththedivine said:

I highly doubt that dommes mean exactly the same thing as our male counterparts when we say we struggle to find truly submissive men.
Especially not me. I have absolutely no interest in initiating or imposing kinks; not only that, but it's the submissive men the ones who desperately bombard us demanding all kinds of acts from us. It isn't very abusive when it's them pushing boundaries and me blocking left and right, is it?

This. I have zero interest too in imposing dominance on men and also have never once proactively messaged a guy. A man who has truly integrated their submission is like gold dust. What we do get is often passive, entitled bottoms who don't understand relational dynamics and think 'submission' is by word to get a kink dispenser, therapist or life coach

[Ha****]

3 hours ago, liliththedivine said:

I highly doubt that dommes mean exactly the same thing as our male counterparts when we say we struggle to find truly submissive men.
Especially not me. I have absolutely no interest in initiating or imposing kinks; not only that, but it's the submissive men the ones who desperately bombard us demanding all kinds of acts from us. It isn't very abusive when it's them pushing boundaries and me blocking left and right, is it?

It's not abusive of you, a LOT of "submissive" men treat dommes like kink dispensers. They often don't really submit to please, but submit to be pleased, which, if you ask me, is pretty backwards.

[ey****]

6 hours ago, clear_spring said:

 

As a domme, I'd say 90% of the messages I recieve are from bottoms masquerading as submissives. They don't center the needs wishes and desires of a dominant, not interested in service and mostly want a menu of recieving physical acts. A theory is that you need actual relational, emotional skills to be adept at creating and negotiating a power dynamic with someone. Bottoms do not have this or need this to fulfil their desires.

it's.... I won't say "funny" as that feels like the wrong word. But, "submissive" in general has become a catch-all term, and... it doesn't work as a catch-all term.  I think some people just don't know how else to define. I think some might see bottom/masochist/fetishist/etc/etc as somehow being "lesser" 

Without entirely placing myself as "main charecter" I have over the years struggled as of whether I'm a sub, whether I'm this, whether I'm that.  To a degree, it doesn't matter providing the other person is also happy with what we're doing.  So I aint saying I'm perfect etc.  but I feel some of this leans into the noise.

[Fl****]

3 hours ago, clear_spring said:

This. I have zero interest too in imposing dominance on men and also have never once proactively messaged a guy. A man who has truly integrated their submission is like gold dust. What we do get is often passive, entitled bottoms who don't understand relational dynamics and think 'submission' is by word to get a kink dispenser, therapist or life coach

Im am relieved to know that this topic has gathered some traction among the fdom/msub community. I do feel sorrow for any disheartened that a minor amount of conflict has come from it although over all I feel that at the very least being able to vent those frusturations with like minder people who have gone through similar experiences might offer some ease of mind.

I do enjot tooling myself with information on how to navigate the scene and the dynamic to best serve wherever I can. Be it the community as a whole so that more of us have chances to interact, or to a potential domme.

Your response has left me with much to think over, ill use this as a template for my next topic to further educate myself. Thank you for your insight :)

[Fl****]

Also I do deeply apologize for all the typos friends, I have big thumbs and a relatively petite phone. My mind races quickly and sometimes my fingers lag behind before I press send. I hope I'm able to get my ideas across effectively despite this 🙇‍♂️

[li****]

2 hours ago, HahaCuddlesGoBRRR said:

It's not abusive of you, a LOT of "submissive" men treat dommes like kink dispensers. They often don't really submit to please, but submit to be pleased, which, if you ask me, is pretty backwards.

Literally every man I've played with complained about wanting more *** and more frequently. If that's ***... 😂

[cl****]

3 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

it's.... I won't say "funny" as that feels like the wrong word. But, "submissive" in general has become a catch-all term, and... it doesn't work as a catch-all term.  I think some people just don't know how else to define. I think some might see bottom/masochist/fetishist/etc/etc as somehow being "lesser" 

Without entirely placing myself as "main charecter" I have over the years struggled as of whether I'm a sub, whether I'm this, whether I'm that.  To a degree, it doesn't matter providing the other person is also happy with what we're doing.  So I aint saying I'm perfect etc.  but I feel some of this leans into the noise.

Bdsm has a long history actually. Its not a catch all term for people who think about their orientation. A bottom is not a submissive- that's fine. Submission describes one side of power exchange. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. However a bottom can enjoy stimulation by whoever doing stuff to them. A submissive is defined by re-orientation of power.

[Bl****]

9 hours ago, clear_spring said:

This. I have zero interest too in imposing dominance on men and also have never once proactively messaged a guy. A man who has truly integrated their submission is like gold dust. What we do get is often passive, entitled bottoms who don't understand relational dynamics and think 'submission' is by word to get a kink dispenser, therapist or life coach

You two keep using bottom interchangeably with a guy that wants the aesthetic of being dominated but are unwilling to give up control. Not the same thing. That said, instead of defending them in general, I’ll psychoanalyse from those I have met: I am betting that at least some of these people want to be submissive but are afraid of it too. There is a lot to learn about power exchange that people seem to think others should automatically know. Unfortunately there are a lot of newbies all the time and way too many men are too patriarchy-brained to allow a woman to teach them how to get what they are looking for.

[cl****]

31 minutes ago, ***OfLethe said:

You two keep using bottom interchangeably with a guy that wants the aesthetic of being dominated but are unwilling to give up control. Not the same thing. That said, instead of defending them in general, I’ll psychoanalyse from those I have met: I am betting that at least some of these people want to be submissive but are afraid of it too. There is a lot to learn about power exchange that people seem to think others should automatically know. Unfortunately there are a lot of newbies all the time and way too many men are too patriarchy-brained to allow a woman to teach them how to get what they are looking for.

Bottoming and submission are not the same thing. Bottoming also has nothing to do with aesthetics. Its being innthe state of recieving or being acted upon without power exchange being a necessary factor.

[cl****]

Also, speaking of patriachy, thanks also for informing us of what our lived experiences are and what we mean ;)

[cl****]

Women precisely aren't here to teach or to mentor unless its been agreed upon in a dynamic. I for one don't offer teaching someone how to be submissive, I would expect that work to be done or in progress

[li****]

1 hour ago, ***OfLethe said:

You two keep using bottom interchangeably with a guy that wants the aesthetic of being dominated but are unwilling to give up control. Not the same thing. That said, instead of defending them in general, I’ll psychoanalyse from those I have met: I am betting that at least some of these people want to be submissive but are afraid of it too. There is a lot to learn about power exchange that people seem to think others should automatically know. Unfortunately there are a lot of newbies all the time and way too many men are too patriarchy-brained to allow a woman to teach them how to get what they are looking for.

I just defined above what bottom is - a receiver. There's nothing wrong about being a bottom only, the problem is the average man here doesn't understand that receiving doesn't make you submissive. Even those who claim to be very experienced. Which leads to all kinds of misunderstandings.

[Bl****]

58 minutes ago, clear_spring said:

Also, speaking of patriachy, thanks also for informing us of what our lived experiences are and what we mean ;)

I wasn’t saying that for your benefit. I just thought if anyone is following this conversation, it may be helpful to actually mention one of the things none of us is actually putting into words

[Bl****]

8 hours ago, FlemishGiant said:

Im am relieved to know that this topic has gathered some traction among the fdom/msub community. I do feel sorrow for any disheartened that a minor amount of conflict has come from it although over all I feel that at the very least being able to vent those frusturations with like minder people who have gone through similar experiences might offer some ease of mind.

I do enjot tooling myself with information on how to navigate the scene and the dynamic to best serve wherever I can. Be it the community as a whole so that more of us have chances to interact, or to a potential domme.

Your response has left me with much to think over, ill use this as a template for my next topic to further educate myself. Thank you for your insight :)

I don’t really think there is much conflict here. I personally think there is some careless use of terminology that causes misunderstandings.

[cl****]

5 minutes ago, ***OfLethe said:

I wasn’t saying that for your benefit. I just thought if anyone is following this conversation, it may be helpful to actually mention one of the things none of us is actually putting into words

Did you not address this to 'you two'? Perhaps that's a misunderstanding of terminology.

[cl****]

8 minutes ago, ***OfLethe said:

I wasn’t saying that for your benefit. I just thought if anyone is following this conversation, it may be helpful to actually mention one of the things none of us is actually putting into words

Actually the difference between submission and bottoming has been put into words quite clearly and repetitively. On the meta level it's an interesting topic to follow in real time in terms of recieving messages that are instructional towards femdom ;)

[Bl****]

39 minutes ago, clear_spring said:

Actually the difference between submission and bottoming has been put into words quite clearly and repetitively. On the meta level it's an interesting topic to follow in real time in terms of recieving messages that are instructional towards femdom ;)

I generally agree quite strongly. The problem is when people equate bottoms with uneducated subs, which I feel is very often the case. Furthermore, I often find people say things like ‘I have no interest in educating… blah blah blah’. These people often don’t say in their profiles that they are not willing to deal with newbies.

[gae]

23 hours ago, liliththedivine said:

but I must emphasize the pleasuring part cause the average male bottom doesn't understand we don't get pleasure from topping them.

The problem is that the way you framed it could sound like D/s are one-sided with the sub being always giving and the D only taking, without bringing anything to the table. And this approach is a big issue in femdom spaces. I mean, in another post a domme said : 

"they have to treat me like a person and not a fetish dispenser. No I don't want to know what you are into. All that matters is that you are okay with what I'm into. This is about my pleasure. Not yours. There are far too many men that identify as submissive but they are really a bottom. A bottom doesn't (usually) want to give their control away.  "

The irony right? 

17 hours ago, clear_spring said:

They don't center the needs wishes and desires of a dominant, not interested in service and mostly want a menu of recieving physical acts. A theory is that you need actual relational, emotional skills to be adept at creating and negotiating a power dynamic with someone. Bottoms do not have this or need this to fulfil their desires.

In my opinion, being dominant means being in charge/control, not being the center of the relationship, pleasure doms are a good counter example of this. Also, you can be sub without being into service (it might depend on how you define service though).

 

 

[Bl****]

14 hours ago, clear_spring said:

This. I have zero interest too in imposing dominance on men and also have never once proactively messaged a guy. A man who has truly integrated their submission is like gold dust. What we do get is often passive, entitled bottoms who don't understand relational dynamics and think 'submission' is by word to get a kink dispenser, therapist or life coach

I keep seeing ‘kink-dispenser’ in this conversation, but if submission is not the kink, then what are the kinks they want dispensed? Because being passive and being a bottom are neither of them kinks…

[cl****]

8 hours ago, ***OfLethe said:

I generally agree quite strongly. The problem is when people equate bottoms with uneducated subs, which I feel is very often the case. Furthermore, I often find people say things like ‘I have no interest in educating… blah blah blah’. These people often don’t say in their profiles that they are not willing to deal with newbies.

Actually nobody is equating bottoms with uneducated subs. Its the opposite. Also, why would anyone need to state they are not willing to deal with newbies? It's not a education service. In the same way when you're dating or job hunting seriously, no one states 'no experience necessary'

[cl****]

5 hours ago, ***OfLethe said:

I keep seeing ‘kink-dispenser’ in this conversation, but if submission is not the kink, then what are the kinks they want dispensed? Because being passive and being a bottom are neither of them kinks…

It might be an idea to get onto Google and learn a bit about this on your own. :) BDSM has a long history

[cl****]

6 hours ago, gae said:

In my opinion, being dominant means being in charge/control, not being the center of the relationship, pleasure doms are a good counter example of this. Also, you can be sub without being into service (it might depend on how you define service though).

 

 

There is no irony. Femdom means the willing, self owned and negotiated centering of power towards the dominant. Its a relationship.

[Bl****]

4 hours ago, clear_spring said:

Actually nobody is equating bottoms with uneducated subs. Its the opposite. Also, why would anyone need to state they are not willing to deal with newbies? It's not a education service. In the same way when you're dating or job hunting seriously, no one states 'no experience necessary'

I am in several kink circles and it’s pretty well known that kink isn’t properly understood by newbies. In the different kink communities that I’ve been in, pretty much everyone makes sure the newbie is educated as quickly as possible so no *** is taking place. Honestly, if you are expecting newbies to know something, you should expect poor behaviour for your kink, dating and job hunting have a lot more traction due to generalised knowledge than kink. In fact there is a lot of easy to access surface level bad kink rep out there. Just look at how popular 50 shades was. Don’t act like these are the same thing.

[cl****]

58 minutes ago, ***OfLethe said:

I am in several kink circles and it’s pretty well known that kink isn’t properly understood by newbies. In the different kink communities that I’ve been in, pretty much everyone makes sure the newbie is educated as quickly as possible so no *** is taking place. Honestly, if you are expecting newbies to know something, you should expect poor behaviour for your kink, dating and job hunting have a lot more traction due to generalised knowledge than kink. In fact there is a lot of easy to access surface level bad kink rep out there. Just look at how popular 50 shades was. Don’t act like these are the same thing.

The topic of this thread isn't about newbies. It's about a ratio of genders in D/s roles.