Do women actually even 'need' men any more?

[ey****]

I saw a meme the other day which I found quite interesting.

It was basically centred around "Do women need men anymore?"

And - ok, this is not saying that women don't want a boyfriend, a husband, a partner, so on - just that there's less reliance on having one than even in our parents/grandparents lifetime

In the 1960s, an American woman needed her husbands permission to have her own bank account.
It wasn't until 1975 in the UK that a woman could open her own bank account.

Up til 1982 a woman could be refused service in a pub in the UK

This is before we even get into things like equal pay and other workplace rights (women were expected to give up work when they got married and up until the 1970s, 'falling pregnant' was a sackable offence) 

I'm not saying things are perfect now (2/3rds of Americans on minimum wage are women, and while some try to dispute the 'gender pay gap' in the UK - there are certainly barriers women face getting into higher paid roles/industries - and - a lot of work we deem "womens work" has lower value placed on it...)

But still.

My point

Our parents/grandparents - or - their peers - had a very good chance of being in a situation where the woman involved would probably get a divorce but she couldn't afford it.   No bank account, out of work and unable to take a job while wed. "Traditional values". So on.

And now we're certainly in a generation where women don't have to go "you'll do" or stay with someone after the initial spark has gone.

Possibly women that the men may have kept around as they keep the house clean, raise the kids and put food on the table.

A lot of us may have parents or grandparents that stuck with a they weren't happy in.

And now that's changed.
A woman can have her own bank account with wages paid in. She can rent as a single woman and can have a mortgage.

That having a man may be nice, but is no longer necessary.

And that there's a lot of men who do not get this.  Who do not understand why women are not flattered they're paying them an interest.
No more kinda "you seem nice, yes, I'll spend my whole life with you raising your kids and be grateful for the roof over my head"

So whenever men are "why is it sooooo hard?!" - it's not so hard. It's just not quite as, possibly, "easy" as it once was.

That women can now afford to have standards.  No more "you'll do".

And moreso, "what benefit does spending time with you bring me?"

And that's a good place to be, for those that are there.

[Deleted Member]

Nope. I'm a single mum. I don't co-parent anymore. I have my own business. I can do it all by myself. Do I want to though?

[Strengan]

This is all good news because increasingly women will choose to only stay with men who step up. There will be a cultural lag as women, who either witnessed or even experienced themselves domestic *** or masculine toxicity, repeat the behavioural patterns of their mothers, but gradually they will react and benefit from a new more benign masculine paradigm.

[Deleted Member]

It’s about choice and this goes both ways. For me I do not need a woman in my life I choose to it’s not a necessity and I can say the same for my partner she doesn’t need me she chooses to have me in her life. In reality gone are the days of codependent relationships and so they should. I’m not interested in getting into the equality argument. It’s just the same as a True Ds relationship it’s not about one have all the power it’s about recognition or where strengths lie. It should be the same regarding equal relationship. It’s a choice a free unconditional choice to enter into.

[Ae****]

To be safe, survive, have food and a roof, women are no longer necessarily dependent on men - if they are in the right society, one where women can earn etc and be independent.
Regarding complaints from men about how hard it is, some of those men may simply be unappealing catches with unrealistic expectations- but also, along with the benefits of things like independence have come other things that have led to it being, indeed, pretty difficult for men when it comes to relationships, compared to before.
This has led to a lot of unhappiness on the part of men, and also, right alongside it, unhappiness on the part of women, as new factors and dynamics that have arisen have actually end up in situations that are not fulfilling for them.

[Firefox_]

I agree that it's become more the norm to not need to settle. Also people's perception of a successful women is one that's done well in her career and being independent, being a good house wife isn't deemed good enough to general public standards. The other issue becomes as women will start picking faults in every relationship and have a view of 'the grass being greener on the other side' because always striving for perfection in a partner and honestly I don't believe that's possible.

[so****]

Dude, hell yes they need us more than these memes & shit say they do. Studies have shown the most unhappy female demographic is high earning professional women in their 40s with no husband & no kids. Whereas the happiest female demographic were stay at home moms with both husbands & kids. Besides, having a father in the household is ESSENTIAL for proper childhood development. This has been shown time & again. Idk. These progressive ideologues will believe what they want. But men & women need each other. It's just the way were are set up as humans.

[ey****]

Just to wrap together a few points

I think there's a big difference between "want" (it'd be very nice to have a partner) and "need" (if I don't have a partner I will be actively discriminated against in society)

Happiness is an interesting one - but... I feel... you can be someone who is single of any gender who feels they would be happier with a partner. That's fair.  But, you don't have to go out and wed the first person to express an interest in you.  

There's no time limit on finding a partner (unless you're really pressuring yourself to find a partner or have kids before a certain age) aaand the consequences of having to end that relationship are less severe than little over a generation or two ago.

(not that it's always easy for someone to leave a partner but certainly easier)

It's not even about really equality here either.  

It came up on another thread about women being able to be "choosy" and, I still don't think this is as simple as implied.   But, moreso they don't have to settle for anyone who shows an interest, or can turn down a suitor if she isn't convinced he will increase her happiness.  

There's less a case of "you should be grateful for a roof over your head or that I'm putting food on the table"

And, I don't think a lot of men know what to do about this.

[qu****]

In response to another comment Ive found studies and statistics can be manipulated to suit a certain view, I've seen as many studies saying men need women more than they need us, but cherry picking studies to suit a personal view isn't the way

[Deleted Member]

10 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

Just to wrap together a few points

I think there's a big difference between "want" (it'd be very nice to have a partner) and "need" (if I don't have a partner I will be actively discriminated against in society)

Happiness is an interesting one - but... I feel... you can be someone who is single of any gender who feels they would be happier with a partner. That's fair.  But, you don't have to go out and wed the first person to express an interest in you.  

There's no time limit on finding a partner (unless you're really pressuring yourself to find a partner or have kids before a certain age) aaand the consequences of having to end that relationship are less severe than little over a generation or two ago.

(not that it's always easy for someone to leave a partner but certainly easier)

It's not even about really equality here either.  

It came up on another thread about women being able to be "choosy" and, I still don't think this is as simple as implied.   But, moreso they don't have to settle for anyone who shows an interest, or can turn down a suitor if she isn't convinced he will increase her happiness.  

There's less a case of "you should be grateful for a roof over your head or that I'm putting food on the table"

And, I don't think a lot of men know what to do about this.

"I don't think a lot of men know what to do about this". Double down on misogyny maybe? 🤷🏻‍♀️

[ey****]

10 minutes ago, Curvykate said:

"I don't think a lot of men know what to do about this". Double down on misogyny maybe? 🤷🏻‍♀️

"I tried calling her a slut when she rejected me!", "Dude, did you try negging?", "Absolutely - I'll start a thread about how there are no real women any more" 

[Deleted Member]

11 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

"I tried calling her a slut when she rejected me!", "Dude, did you try negging?", "Absolutely - I'll start a thread about how there are no real women any more" 

😆I am remembering when a guy warned every Dom on the site away from me and a couple of other women because we were feminists. (Or progressive idealogues perhaps.).

[ey****]

34 minutes ago, Curvykate said:

😆I am remembering when a guy warned every Dom on the site away from me and a couple of other women because we were feminists. (Or progressive idealogues perhaps.).

"yeah, dude - stay away from the femininists [sic] - they actually have ideas and free thought"  

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

"yeah, dude - stay away from the femininists [sic] - they actually have ideas and free thought"  

"Dude! Feminists are responsible for all that's wrong in the world 😣"

[Strengan]

Having a father in the house isn’t any more essential than having a woman. Premature death has always meant that there have been countless single parent households even more so when there war, famine and disease were far more common for us in the west. Deal with it regressive ideologue.

[Deleted Member]

4 hours ago, Liccian said:

Having a father in the house isn’t any more essential than having a woman. Premature death has always meant that there have been countless single parent households even more so when there war, famine and disease were far more common for us in the west. Deal with it regressive ideologue.

Single mum here. I think where possible that kids benefit from both parents in their lives. But it's not always how it works out. I can only do my best.

[Strengan]

There are so many caveats though concerning the advantages of a traditional male/female partnership. Your best may be better than many couples; you may have male role model to hand such as brothers and friends as; same sex relationships by definition cannot have both sexes present and unhappy parents make unhappy children. So considering all the other factors I don’t think we should obsess about traditional marriages.

[ey****]

I think though

and of course, this has a hetereonormative bias

if someone is a single woman and they want a child they may need a man - although not necessarily as a partner 

if a woman has a child there is less stigma as being a single mother now versus 30-40 years ago

if a woman has a child and is in a relationship that needs to end (love no longer there, abusive, whatever) as well as being easier to leave her partner, the whole concept of "stay together for the kids" is an outdated idea - this has less influence in binding together a loveless relationship

I also think that - I dunno.  If we take a scenario of a couple splitting and agreeing a custardy agreement - it may be that the now single lady may well wish for a new partner at some point - but how would you feel as the guy in this scenario if she was like "OK, so I need a man now so our child has a male role model" - it'd be nuts

 

 

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I think though

and of course, this has a hetereonormative bias

if someone is a single woman and they want a child they may need a man - although not necessarily as a partner 

if a woman has a child there is less stigma as being a single mother now versus 30-40 years ago

if a woman has a child and is in a relationship that needs to end (love no longer there, abusive, whatever) as well as being easier to leave her partner, the whole concept of "stay together for the kids" is an outdated idea - this has less influence in binding together a loveless relationship

I also think that - I dunno.  If we take a scenario of a couple splitting and agreeing a custardy agreement - it may be that the now single lady may well wish for a new partner at some point - but how would you feel as the guy in this scenario if she was like "OK, so I need a man now so our child has a male role model" - it'd be nuts

 

 

But if a child has an involved father they do have a male role model. And as Liccian says, there may be other male role models around. I'm selfish, I want a partner for me!
I still think though that there is still a fair amount of pressure to "stay for the kids' sake". I received it.

[Strengan]

There are always pressures but not always the right ones! Single parenthood should not be stigmatised. Obviously every case is different but we if we acknowledge that toxic relationships are worse for the children than single parents (and let’s not forget there are male ones too) then Curvykate is right to be ‘selfish’ because any new relationship must be healthy for the sake of the children as well as hers. Of course they must also be positive role models as well as they presence will impact on the children.

[ey****]

8 hours ago, Curvykate said:

I'm selfish, I want a partner for me!

I don't think that's selfish at all 

[Deleted Member]

14 hours ago, Liccian said:

There are always pressures but not always the right ones! Single parenthood should not be stigmatised. Obviously every case is different but we if we acknowledge that toxic relationships are worse for the children than single parents (and let’s not forget there are male ones too) then Curvykate is right to be ‘selfish’ because any new relationship must be healthy for the sake of the children as well as hers. Of course they must also be positive role models as well as they presence will impact on the children.

I would think if I judge a man as suitable for me, he would be a kinky pervert. So possibly not a great role model. 😆 I am being facetious btw. Actually I don't agree with having a new partner in my kids' lives. Too disruptive. I don't need another "dad" for them.

[Deleted Member]

7 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I don't think that's selfish at all 

Thank you eyem. I felt very selfish when I joined fetlife a few years back. The feeling has faded a little.

[Strengan]

3 hours ago, Curvykate said:

I would think if I judge a man as suitable for me, he would be a kinky pervert. So possibly not a great role model. 😆 I am being facetious btw. Actually I don't agree with having a new partner in my kids' lives. Too disruptive. I don't need another "dad" for them.

Which suggests to me that men aren’t essential in bringing up kids which is what I have been saying. (Facetious comment appreciated btw 😉.)

[Deleted Member]

22 hours ago, Liccian said:

Which suggests to me that men aren’t essential in bringing up kids which is what I have been saying. (Facetious comment appreciated btw 😉.)

I don't see parenting as needing to be gendered tbh. I think men and women can parent well or badly. I would prefer to co-parent, but my ex is too narcissistic for that. Eyem's original post was about whether women had independence in the true sense of the word. I think in the UK we do, but in some other countries sadly not.