Do women actually even 'need' men any more?

[Deleted Member]

In NL only 20% of women work 100%. The next generation women working part-time as well due to raising kids. Even now we are not fully independent but is that wrong? I do not know really. I like to believe we need each other. Maybe not financially (certainly not me) but as a life partner…always and even me 😉

[Strengan]

1 hour ago, Curvykate said:

I don't see parenting as needing to be gendered tbh. I think men and women can parent well or badly. I would prefer to co-parent, but my ex is too narcissistic for that. Eyem's original post was about whether women had independence in the true sense of the word. I think in the UK we do, but in some other countries sadly not.

I don’t see most women can have true independence without more child care and wage equality but eye’s original question was do (heterosexual) woman still ‘need’ men? Aquilae above suggests an emotional attachment that may outlast any material bond. If we have evolved to co-exist in (flawed) partnerships the lasting effects will be with us for who knows how long?

[na****]

I'm fairly Independant in my everyday life but crave to be submissive in my sex life... So I guess it depends on the context really 😊😊

[Deleted Member]

15 hours ago, Liccian said:

I don’t see most women can have true independence without more child care and wage equality but eye’s original question was do (heterosexual) woman still ‘need’ men? Aquilae above suggests an emotional attachment that may outlast any material bond. If we have evolved to co-exist in (flawed) partnerships the lasting effects will be with us for who knows how long?

You're right. There's not equality yet by a long shot. One of the primary drivers of wage inequality is childcare isn't it? Once a woman has children, the gap widens. Independence is a different marker than equality though. I don't feel that I need a man financially or emotionally. Tbh emotionally men have caused me more harm than good of late. I would like one or more partners - I don't need them.

[Strengan]

I both respect and recognise that because I don’t need it either. I wonder if that has anything to do with gender at all. Maybe financial independence has fostered that sense in more women than before?

[Strengan]

6 hours ago, Curvykate said:

You're right. There's not equality yet by a long shot. One of the primary drivers of wage inequality is childcare isn't it? Once a woman has children, the gap widens. Independence is a different marker than equality though. I don't feel that I need a man financially or emotionally. Tbh emotionally men have caused me more harm than good of late. I would like one or more partners - I don't need them.

Childbirth massively disrupts careers and for anyone but the very richest childcare does too.

[Ae****]

People can joke about men not knowing what to do about women being less dependent, and about how some men behave a result of the way things are now.
But it would be good, and less disappointing, to see acknowledgement of the other side - that it is indeed actually very hard to figure things out for men. And the strong, warped, ugly things expressed and felt by some men are a result of this new difficulty. Its not minor. And in response to one comment, there are actually many things that go under the name of feminism, feminism in its more modern iterations, that are indeed pretty damaging for society. Its not responsible for all the worlds problems, but it does have a few pretty big ones to answer for. The kind that create horrible, and pretty broken men.

[ey****]

1 hour ago, Aeonova said:

But it would be good, and less disappointing, to see acknowledgement of the other side - that it is indeed actually very hard to figure things out for men.

It is. And, I have touched this at points at times.  That possibly our parents or grandparents (or both) met in a "you'll do" kinda situation. I'm not saying they didn't love each other but certainly with other points there were times when there were more pressure particularly for women to get married and raise a family.

So, yeah, this has led to a lot of cases where education from parents isn't passed down.  

How we meet our partners has changed also - that while 'via friends' has always been a major point, we've seen a rapid decline in people meeting in college, through family, through church - and - of course 40-50 years ago it was more likely you'd just marry off to a neighbour.

However. Just because we're not able to learn from our parents on this, doesn't mean there isn't information out there.

If we look at kink, for example. And Femdom. Do you know what the top trait women look for is? Domestic Servitude.  Basically, a partner who is going to at least do their fair share of housework.

And yes, it is hard. But, I think accepting that it is hard and that you may have to work harder is part of the process.

1 hour ago, Aeonova said:

feminism in its more modern iterations, that are indeed pretty damaging for society. The kind that create horrible, and pretty broken men.

I don't feel the problem as such is feminism - the problem is toxic masculinity (not to be confused with 'masculinity')

People like to blame feminism because it can shift the blame. It's someone else responsible for the ills rather than looking inwards.  

Things like "boys don't cry", things that cause men to shut down about feelings.  To not seek medical help.  These traits deemed to be a "real man" and that you've somehow failed as a man if you don't live up to this (and this is something women can be guilty of projecting onto men also) 

And the problem.

The problem is a lot of these men seek out some of the worst advice.  So instead of looking for help. Looking up positive resources. Combatting some of the toxic traits that are *actually* not their fault but a product of the environment or upbringing - instead of sitting with a positive thought process they disappear to grooming websites, the whole red pill thing and - this gives them comfort. An intelligent looking man in a nice suit puts a blanket over them and tells them softly, "it's not your fault" (and, largely it's not) "feminism is the enemy. identity politics is the enemy. BLM is the enemy" and that is what ends up breeding bigger problems.

That when faced with two paths. One of accepting things are hard but looking to succeed, and one where someone will wrap you up and tell you it's not your fault - the problem is that some choose the latter, because it's easier that way.

This is often people who feel they should be entitled to sex. To a wife. To someone to stay at home and clean their house and raise their kids while they go to the bar after work - probably as their father or grandfather may have done.  Because it then becomes a case of not caring if their partner is happy.

[Ae****]

My final push back on this :) I didn't say the problem is feminism. I say later iterations of it has problems.
And it's ckear that men can look for help and choose a better way. But my entire point is actually, it's not that simple. Because of the complexity of modern life, and indeed some of it due to some of the kinds of feminism I referred to. In short it's about unhealthy people as opposed to the broad categories of men or feminism.

I think saying men blame feminism and can just choose to be better by being intelligent about it is not seeing subtlety and oversimplification. It is the equivalent, from the other side, of some men saying that "feminism is the enemy". Just as unbalanced.

[ey****]

I could go off to the side here, but no.  Yep, I agree there's a lot more complex to boil down to then we can in a reasonable amount of words.

Finding a relationship, especially within kink, is actually quite hard (for everyone) but there are things people do which make it harder for themselves to find relationships.

I think there's a truth also that someone can seemingly do everything 'right' and still not get the output they desire which is something which I know can drive frustrations.

But, there is also a little secret.  Whilst, in general, a lot of the dependencies women had on men have been removed - men don't need women either.  And like some of the women have said ("I don't need a partner, but I'd like one") the same is true - that, it might be nice to have a partner, a Mistress, a submissive - but, it's not a necessity.  We don't need to settle for a bad or unsuitable relationship ourselves.

I've found - and this is just my experiences - but - particularly when I was younger and probably at risk of slipping down a wrong path - I did the whole "I'm nice, why won't anyone give me a chance" thing and got quite frustrated.  The more pressure I put on myself to find a partner, the more I came across as desperate. The more the "you'll do" vibes came off.  The more, when I approached someone my effort was low because "why put in effort if she aint gonna reply" - I have made a lot of the mistakes I've spoke about. That's why I speak about them, in the hopes others don't.   But, every relationship pretty much came about when I wasn't looking, when I wasn't putting this pressure on myself, when I was doing things for the enjoyment of them and meeting a partner being an unexpected thing.

Modern life can be difficult. But we don't need to make things harder.

[Phoenyx]

On the question of whether a woman needs a man anymore, that really depends on the individual.  In the sense of physical/practical need, the answer is "No."  Today, anyone can work for a living, control their own finances, etc.  But then, that does not take into account, emotional need.  Most folks feel the need for an intimate best friend---a person to share their innermost thoughts, a partner and ally to face the trials of life.

Unfortunately, such emotional need can lead one (woman or man) to remain trapped in an abusive relationship.  They feel that the *** of loss would be much worse than the *** of ***.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  The *** of loss is transitory, while the *** of *** is chronic.  There is always a better situation out there.  However, "The Media" (both "mainstream" and "social") wish to sensationalize those rare exceptions of ***, making them seem more like "the norm".  "If it bleeds, it leads!"  This too, may discourage many folks from escaping the cycle of ***, as it may seem that there is nothing better.  Or, it could lead to someone denying their own emotional needs---deciding to stay miserable and alone---because of the pervasive message of "nothing better".

Which, gets into the whole concept of "Identity Politics"---a topic that has raised its ugly head in this discussion.  We must remember, that Identity Politics are toxins, introduced by the ruling elites (politicians, corporations, billionaires, etc).  Such concepts are nothing but a modern application of feudalism---a way of keeping "the lower classes" fighting among themselves.  They preach a message of "equality", when their true intent is to maintain the inequality.  Add in the fact, that corporations have discovered that lonely, angry, isolated people tend to more useless crap.  So, it is important to take such divisive propaganda (whether "Left" or "Right") with an extremely large grain of salt.

[ey****]

I think there's important things about identity politics - and that is - well it can often be a distraction.

When I say this I don't want to say prejudice doesn't exist - because it does - but wider discussion there can get a little off point

But, I feel that there can be a lot of below the line thinking when another group is blamed.

So, for example

"I can't get a Domme / sub / wife / girlfriend / fuck..... because.... feminism / all the women want *** / the ratio / so on" is something where it's a rather negative view point and blames others. 

 

[Deleted Member]

Wednesday at 12:56 AM, Aeonova said:

My final push back on this :) I didn't say the problem is feminism. I say later iterations of it has problems.
And it's ckear that men can look for help and choose a better way. But my entire point is actually, it's not that simple. Because of the complexity of modern life, and indeed some of it due to some of the kinds of feminism I referred to. In short it's about unhealthy people as opposed to the broad categories of men or feminism.

I think saying men blame feminism and can just choose to be better by being intelligent about it is not seeing subtlety and oversimplification. It is the equivalent, from the other side, of some men saying that "feminism is the enemy". Just as unbalanced.

Catching up on this conversation - can you be a little more specific about modern iterations of feminism and how it can be problematic for men, @Aeonova ? I am interested in this. Or message me if you prefer.

[Ae****]

I'll message Mz Kate! 😁