When did it change?

[Sc****]

2 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

there's so much thoughts that posts like this bring up

I might dip in with others - but if everything was great in the 80s, 90s, etc. where is everyone? Particularly the women.  Because it is always a guy saying how much better things were then, yet you seldom here from women in their 50s and 60s about how happy/happier they were. 

They're out still being social while the aging men are more keen to just reminisce (or gripe) about it..."well back in my day".... XD

There was some movement prior, driven through the growing distribution of pornography and fetish literature that emerged and started making its way into people's hands. However, the late 90s was the beginning of a period of exponential growth for many, many things, scene included.

It's multidimensional, but the largest factors were the rise of the Internet (the biggest piece) in tandem with cultural liberalization and sociology's increasing influence. Before this, the archetype in the mind's eye of the public was the leather-clad dom or Ilsa the She-Wolf, riding crops in hand, formal protocols at the ready as well. The result of the mores of the time, as well as gate-keeping by more prominent kink orgs. Then, boom!, Usenet, Prodigy, AOL, etc. and all of a sudden thousands of people started conversing with each other in a punk rock DIY orgy of terminological development.

Still very much "underground" though. Bigger, briskly simmering, but people weren't publicly flying their kink flags just yet. Tech was still a barrier. It took some ability to not only get online, but figure out what to do once you were. Newgroups and IRC were still practically word-of-mouth in how they spread. Then 2008 hits, normies all find themselves staring at iPhones now, and apps start to become a thing; Facebook, FetLife, etc. So then they get in on the conversation too, and the forums for having those conversations became much easier to find.

And that the point that EVERYONE had to put their .02 in. And of course no one wants to be left out, that's a crappy feeling.

Kink goes global. No longer contained in the bedroom or a seedy club at the edge of town. Or urban enclaves. It's everywhere (again, in tandem with porn). All the genuinely important points were hashed out first, mostly. After that came the "creativity". But late-joiners, subsequent generations, they HAVE to get their .02 too. Hence, it never ends, or never seems to haha. Until everyone becomes exhausted of it and moves on to whatever the new thing is. We're in that exhaustion phase now, that's why we have people rolling their eyes, or talking about "before times". It's gotten excessive. The things that mattered in this regard, that needed work are done. There can be only so many permutations of sex, gender, etc.

Not inherently awful, but people manage to become insufferable about anything we put our minds to do so about. Until the spell breaks.

So, absolutely some good came out of it. As did a lot of bad. One big point that commonly gets missed in these large cultural shifts caused by technological innovation is the flattening of the culture. Regional, even global, differences get lost. Flavors all blend together, novelty fades. Sure, we all (mostly) agree on the rules of the game, in this case language. But it's boring and unappealing in many ways. Like the color you get when you mix all the ***t colors together as a kid, you get that shitty brown.

And the end result: we find ourselves slouching toward a monoculture ***ted that exact shade.

[Co****]

If I’m not in a committed relationship with someone or at a club or party, it’s absolutely is pay to play. If they want a kink dispenser, my labour isn’t free. The cliques are always hard to break into, the lobby here reminds me of AOL general chat

[Sc****]

5 hours ago, CopperKnob said:

My two pence.
Having just "4 positions" is to segregate. BDSM is a massive umbrella. To only include D/s and M/s is to exclude and isolate those with other kinks/fetishes. It is the opposite of "inclusive."
People are individuals. How I view D/s will be (and is often) different to how others view it and thats ok. But, that's the issue with labels. D/s, BDSM isn't a one size fits all. We don't all fit nicely into little boxes.
I'm clear about what type of relationship I want and I don't often entertain conversation with people who don't align with that unless I've seen them interacting in the forums and I've seen how they portray themselves. The reality is that we seek out what we're comfortable with, others who share a common ground.
Things change, people and society evolve. It's part of the human condition.
.
Im interested in when you think things changed and the why. I can probably hazard a good guess because it's always 1 of 3 or 4 points people who've been in the community for a prolonged period raise.

 

I am very curious about those 4 points you mentioned. I'm trying to guess in my head what they might be, but I'm sure I'm not even close.

Interestingly, or at least I think so, the complaints I hear from women who have been in the scene for many years is that today's doms are soft. I probably hear it once a week even, usually followed by a recounting of some experience they had with a "dom" who couldn't step up. It's a weird time no matter how we look at it, I suppose.

 

 

[MasterTalathian47342]

6 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

there's so much thoughts that posts like this bring up

I might dip in with others - but if everything was great in the 80s, 90s, etc. where is everyone? Particularly the women.  Because it is always a guy saying how much better things were then, yet you seldom here from women in their 50s and 60s about how happy/happier they were. 

They are still around and you will find them occasionally on sites like this though most are in groups like in Facebook etc.   There are several groups for over 40s on Facebook and often the discussions of days gone past and the changes observed.   Women are a large part of those groups.   Also on fetlife as well in the groups there also. 

 

I have noticed on sites like this often it is under 40 years old for the populace since these sites were made later on.   However sites like fetlife and collarme (though i think that is shut down now)  are the older sites and where the older groups are. 

[MasterTalathian47342]

3 hours ago, ScalpelPrecision said:

 

I am very curious about those 4 points you mentioned. I'm trying to guess in my head what they might be, but I'm sure I'm not even close.

Interestingly, or at least I think so, the complaints I hear from women who have been in the scene for many years is that today's doms are soft. I probably hear it once a week even, usually followed by a recounting of some experience they had with a "dom" who couldn't step up. It's a weird time no matter how we look at it, I suppose.

 

 

I agree with your information here and am interested in her 4 points as well though I believe I know one of them which is my choice. 

Edited June 27 by MasterTalathian47342
Incorrect pronoun due to autocorrect as pointed out by @Copperknob

[MasterTalathian47342]

3 hours ago, ScalpelPrecision said:

They're out still being social while the aging men are more keen to just reminisce (or gripe) about it..."well back in my day".... XD

There was some movement prior, driven through the growing distribution of pornography and fetish literature that emerged and started making its way into people's hands. However, the late 90s was the beginning of a period of exponential growth for many, many things, scene included.

It's multidimensional, but the largest factors were the rise of the Internet (the biggest piece) in tandem with cultural liberalization and sociology's increasing influence. Before this, the archetype in the mind's eye of the public was the leather-clad dom or Ilsa the She-Wolf, riding crops in hand, formal protocols at the ready as well. The result of the mores of the time, as well as gate-keeping by more prominent kink orgs. Then, boom!, Usenet, Prodigy, AOL, etc. and all of a sudden thousands of people started conversing with each other in a punk rock DIY orgy of terminological development.

Still very much "underground" though. Bigger, briskly simmering, but people weren't publicly flying their kink flags just yet. Tech was still a barrier. It took some ability to not only get online, but figure out what to do once you were. Newgroups and IRC were still practically word-of-mouth in how they spread. Then 2008 hits, normies all find themselves staring at iPhones now, and apps start to become a thing; Facebook, FetLife, etc. So then they get in on the conversation too, and the forums for having those conversations became much easier to find.

And that the point that EVERYONE had to put their .02 in. And of course no one wants to be left out, that's a crappy feeling.

Kink goes global. No longer contained in the bedroom or a seedy club at the edge of town. Or urban enclaves. It's everywhere (again, in tandem with porn). All the genuinely important points were hashed out first, mostly. After that came the "creativity". But late-joiners, subsequent generations, they HAVE to get their .02 too. Hence, it never ends, or never seems to haha. Until everyone becomes exhausted of it and moves on to whatever the new thing is. We're in that exhaustion phase now, that's why we have people rolling their eyes, or talking about "before times". It's gotten excessive. The things that mattered in this regard, that needed work are done. There can be only so many permutations of sex, gender, etc.

Not inherently awful, but people manage to become insufferable about anything we put our minds to do so about. Until the spell breaks.

So, absolutely some good came out of it. As did a lot of bad. One big point that commonly gets missed in these large cultural shifts caused by technological innovation is the flattening of the culture. Regional, even global, differences get lost. Flavors all blend together, novelty fades. Sure, we all (mostly) agree on the rules of the game, in this case language. But it's boring and unappealing in many ways. Like the color you get when you mix all the ***t colors together as a kid, you get that shitty brown.

And the end result: we find ourselves slouching toward a monoculture ***ted that exact shade.

Very good information.   Again I agree with you whole heartedly.  

[MasterTalathian47342]

8 hours ago, CopperKnob said:

My two pence.
Having just "4 positions" is to segregate. BDSM is a massive umbrella. To only include D/s and M/s is to exclude and isolate those with other kinks/fetishes. It is the opposite of "inclusive."
People are individuals. How I view D/s will be (and is often) different to how others view it and thats ok. But, that's the issue with labels. D/s, BDSM isn't a one size fits all. We don't all fit nicely into little boxes.
I'm clear about what type of relationship I want and I don't often entertain conversation with people who don't align with that unless I've seen them interacting in the forums and I've seen how they portray themselves. The reality is that we seek out what we're comfortable with, others who share a common ground.
Things change, people and society evolve. It's part of the human condition.
.
Im interested in when you think things changed and the why. I can probably hazard a good guess because it's always 1 of 3 or 4 points people who've been in the community for a prolonged period raise.

At the time you didn't need more.   The 4 roles covered everything.   It didn't matter if you were into DDlg or anything else the roles were D/s or M/s and the rest was basically considered kink under those umbrellas.   It wasn't a "you have to state each kink role" to describe yourself.   A soft Dom, Daddy, Dominant, sadist etc were all Dominants.   Little and submissives and service subs etc were all submissives.   What you did in your dynamic wasn't out like that. 

 

Now don't get me wrong change is not a bad thing and in many ways it's inevitable whether for the good or bad.   

I can't answer as well as @ScalpelPrecisiondid but here is my answers. 

 

The two times that I have seen major changes in the lifestyle is one with the advent of the internet because it began connecting people from across the globe and letting people that were stuck in local areas to expand their areas. 

 

The second was with Fifty Shades.   

Now to me the first change was good and helpful to the lifestyle as it slowed people to reach out to others and know they weren't alone and weren't the only ones that felt the way they did. 

 

The second was,  to me and many i know,  was more detrimental because after reading a book or watching a movie people just grabbed at titles and said well I am Dominant or i am submissive or whatever and start doing things with no knowledge of anything.   I know I read many stories and posts about people getting hurt by others because they didn't know what they were doing but the talked good because they had information they could read.   Reading doesn't tell you the places that you shouldn't do impact play or how to negotiate for a safe session or things like that.   

 

Before there was education to it.   Even after "The Old Guard" (though they never used that term) passed through the  lifestyle those that were brought up in that era still passed on their education to others locally.   With the advent of the internet the information was pared around but people still learned before they started things.  There wasn't a store any one could stop by on their way home and get cuffs and floggers and whips and take them home not knowing how to use them. 

 

For me the worst thing at any point to be lost is the education and safety.   I honestly could care less if someone wants to stack those roles and kinks and such as long as they educate themselves and do it safely. 

 

I have run a group on fetlife for many years that met every month just for that reason, to bring education and safety to people.   We had instructors from all throughout the lifestyle come and give classes.   We gave classes from flogger making,  bdsm 101, vetting, shibari, kinbaku and many many other subject.  Just so that the education can be passed on. 

 

Of course this post and any of my comments are based on my personal experiences and knowledge.   As I said it's my 2 cents and mileage may vary. 

 

One size does not fit all but there are many negative aspects that keep getting expounded on and often it seems those are the things that people latch onto because it's easier than actually learning.   I like that this site has the classes online and I like that there are resources all over the internet and available for anyone to reach.   I don't like the fact that others read books or watch porn and think they are an expert.   People get hurt that way.   People get turned away from the lifestyle that way.  Once again these are only my thoughts and not reflective of anything but my thoughts but I love this lifestyle truly after 40 years I do and I don't mind changes when they are for the good.

[CopperKnob]

40 minutes ago, MasterTalathian47342 said:

I agree with your information here and am interested in his 4 points as well though I believe I know one of them which is my choice. 

I'm guessing you don't necessarily appreciate them but pronouns are important

[MasterTalathian47342]

2 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

I'm guessing you don't necessarily appreciate them but pronouns are important

I do apologize.   I am in my phone and it auto corrected.   I do appreciate pronouns and would not have intentionally put that.   I am not sure if I can edit it but if I can I will correct it. 

[MasterTalathian47342]

6 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

I'm guessing you don't necessarily appreciate them but pronouns are important

It is corrected and again I apologize for that. 

[CopperKnob]

17 minutes ago, MasterTalathian47342 said:

At the time you didn't need more.   The 4 roles covered everything.   It didn't matter if you were into DDlg or anything else the roles were D/s or M/s and the rest was basically considered kink under those umbrellas.   It wasn't a "you have to state each kink role" to describe yourself.   A soft Dom, Daddy, Dominant, sadist etc were all Dominants.   Little and submissives and service subs etc were all submissives.   What you did in your dynamic wasn't out like that. 

 

Now don't get me wrong change is not a bad thing and in many ways it's inevitable whether for the good or bad.   

I can't answer as well as @ScalpelPrecisiondid but here is my answers. 

 

The two times that I have seen major changes in the lifestyle is one with the advent of the internet because it began connecting people from across the globe and letting people that were stuck in local areas to expand their areas. 

 

The second was with Fifty Shades.   

Now to me the first change was good and helpful to the lifestyle as it slowed people to reach out to others and know they weren't alone and weren't the only ones that felt the way they did. 

 

The second was,  to me and many i know,  was more detrimental because after reading a book or watching a movie people just grabbed at titles and said well I am Dominant or i am submissive or whatever and start doing things with no knowledge of anything.   I know I read many stories and posts about people getting hurt by others because they didn't know what they were doing but the talked good because they had information they could read.   Reading doesn't tell you the places that you shouldn't do impact play or how to negotiate for a safe session or things like that.   

 

Before there was education to it.   Even after "The Old Guard" (though they never used that term) passed through the  lifestyle those that were brought up in that era still passed on their education to others locally.   With the advent of the internet the information was pared around but people still learned before they started things.  There wasn't a store any one could stop by on their way home and get cuffs and floggers and whips and take them home not knowing how to use them. 

 

For me the worst thing at any point to be lost is the education and safety.   I honestly could care less if someone wants to stack those roles and kinks and such as long as they educate themselves and do it safely. 

 

I have run a group on fetlife for many years that met every month just for that reason, to bring education and safety to people.   We had instructors from all throughout the lifestyle come and give classes.   We gave classes from flogger making,  bdsm 101, vetting, shibari, kinbaku and many many other subject.  Just so that the education can be passed on. 

 

Of course this post and any of my comments are based on my personal experiences and knowledge.   As I said it's my 2 cents and mileage may vary. 

 

One size does not fit all but there are many negative aspects that keep getting expounded on and often it seems those are the things that people latch onto because it's easier than actually learning.   I like that this site has the classes online and I like that there are resources all over the internet and available for anyone to reach.   I don't like the fact that others read books or watch porn and think they are an expert.   People get hurt that way.   People get turned away from the lifestyle that way.  Once again these are only my thoughts and not reflective of anything but my thoughts but I love this lifestyle truly after 40 years I do and I don't mind changes when they are for the good.

There are still groups, there are still kink educators running classes which are well attended.
.
People always 'blame' the internet or 50SoG and maybe they've had some impact but not as much as another factor.
.
Eyem hinted at it in their response.

[MasterTalathian47342]

4 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

There are still groups, there are still kink educators running classes which are well attended.
.
People always 'blame' the internet or 50SoG and maybe they've had some impact but not as much as another factor.
.
Eyem hinted at it in their response.

I agree and as I stated run one of those groups though since covid attendance had waned greatly. 

 

I am not blaming anything I am just stating the two points that I see as changing things.   There is no blame.   It's life.   Things change.   

 

I may be incorrect but are you speaking of that it is usually men stating these things?  

 

Up until the mid to late 80s and even the early 90s you did not see many females in Dominant roles.   Much of the lack of that was because the local groups were ran by men who viewed women as subservient to them. 

 

I was raised differently and was raised that women had a choice so for me my view is different.   Even in my early years I became a submissive to a female as part of my education to learn what I put others through.   I quickly learned I am not submissive but I had agreed to a 6 month contract and stuck it out for the 6 months.   I still carry the scars of that education to this day.   

 

The women are out there and many will make the statement of the changes as well as I do.   In fact one of the groups I am in on fb a similar post was made by an older female which prompted this post. 

 

I take nothing away from females and support them in any role they choose.   Sexualality never has and never will make an impact on how I see a woman for her ability.   In fact my wife is a switch but is submissive to me and Dom to others by her choice and I support her choice. 

 

Of course I could have read the hint wrong and just blew smoke out my ass here lol. 

 

Doesn't change the fact that those women like the educators are around but I will agree not as numerous as the men any more. 

[sardonicus87]

Hmm, no there were more than just those 4 groups for a very long time. Just because they're more visible now thanks to the proliferation of the internet and mass communication and you never heard of them before, doesn't mean they didn't exist. Not everyone "back in the day" identified with D/s or M/s... many identified with leather or latex fetishes or spankos or sadomasochists or other things that may not have involved those two specific dynamics/four specific roles. That definitely was not all there was or all that was necessary "back in the day".

[ey****]

So, I guess basically - I can't claim 40 years experience since I am on 43 and didn't attend sex events as a minor.    I was however 19 when I first started attending fetish sites and using D/s sites at the time (genuinely can't remember if Collarme was a thing then, but I was on MasterSlave, Alt, and a couple of others) I was active for a couple of years and then had a little break - and came back to find a lot of different people.  It's almost sad how few people from the first days were still about (though, I did bump into one of the ladies in my local rock bar the other week which is always a pleasure) and some is different reasons - some are no longer with us, some moved out the area.    But, for some.   They found that they'd been pushed into a kink dynamic that wasn't right for them but it's all they were taught there was. For others, a lot really was the whole 'only gig in town' thing - so people were limited to their world view.

Of course there was internet then - but a lot of the sites were fairly limited and a lot of ideas didn't come together.

One thing I did find, after I came back - as I say, none of the women were still active and some of this was a surprise - but occasionally you'd get a guy who would talk up "how things were" and it's like, hang on... I was there. No it wasn't.  Their story is reliant on telling it to people who weren't there.   

Now, of course I've learnt also that different scenes in different territories have progressed differently so if someone says "this is what the LA kink scene was like in 1995" I would almost have to take their word for it; but if someone says "this is what the local kink scene was like in 2000" - err, no it wasn't

And I've come to harvest this slight issue - and some of this has led me to different elements of trying to learn about kink histories and a lot of these are written by people who "are still around" and so then it becomes a case of ok - so what about those who are not.   And it's somewhat ironic cos I have seen comments here and there over the years and it's from people who felt they didn't fit in during the 90s and early 2000s because of their kinks, because they were LGBTQ+ (depsite the modern kink scene/community being built on the back of LGBTQ+ communities), because they were a switch, because they liked activities deemed submissive but weren't a "sub" - so if anything, the modern scene is more accepting to different groups.  However, that doesn't mean they don't all need to talk to each other, especially when there are those who disagree with their presence.

 

So for me the big changes were 

1) Availability of internet - brought ideas together and that did have some people learn that what they were taught was "the way" wasn't the "only" way

2) That meetings/events/munches can be a little more public and are larger - which means people don't have to talk to people they don't really relate to becuse there's other options and often fewer gatekeepers 

3) The availability of these - i.e. don't like one dungeons rules?  OK, there's another one with different rules an hour away - which you know about, and found out about - partially due to (1) and (2) 

4) Ditto on 3 for websites.  Like, it's not that kink discussion is confined to Fetlife or,going back, Informed Consent - there are Facebook, Discord, ***am, WhatsApp, etc groups - and let's not even start on twitter and reddit 

[ey****]

Side note

"Pay to Play" - this massively pre-dates kink communities. Not by a couple of years, or decades, but centuries.   Aside from hopeful and coded newspaper classified ads from the late 19th and early 20th century - the best and easiest way to find someone for play was to pay them.   Things like brothels went from having someone who would do kink activities if you asked, to having specialist workers, to having specialist premises (the early dungeons) 

The role of "pay to play" is a massive bedrock on the building of modern community.   And, even now, the maintainence.    If you're lucky to live near somewhere with a local dungeon, then who do you think owns it (or hires it) when there's not a weekly/monthly dungeon party?   If it's a fetish event with hired in furniture - those who make the furniture only have a business because sex workers buy so much of their stuff for their own premises.  

[CopperKnob]

2 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

Side note

"Pay to Play" - this massively pre-dates kink communities. Not by a couple of years, or decades, but centuries.   Aside from hopeful and coded newspaper classified ads from the late 19th and early 20th century - the best and easiest way to find someone for play was to pay them.   Things like brothels went from having someone who would do kink activities if you asked, to having specialist workers, to having specialist premises (the early dungeons) 

The role of "pay to play" is a massive bedrock on the building of modern community.   And, even now, the maintainence.    If you're lucky to live near somewhere with a local dungeon, then who do you think owns it (or hires it) when there's not a weekly/monthly dungeon party?   If it's a fetish event with hired in furniture - those who make the furniture only have a business because sex workers buy so much of their stuff for their own premises.  

The fact that there are a lot of kink educators who are also sex workers is probably a surprise to some not only this, but how many sex workers have influenced/shaped BDSM, making it more accessible and championing it.

[CopperKnob]

There was a comment here, that someone made in relation to there being more dominant women than there was 'back in the day'

People need to take a ook back on the entire course of human civilisation. Take an honest, deep, unbiased and authentic look.
How well did unsubmissive women do?
For almost all of human history, non-submissive women were brutally stamped out in a multitude of ways. Brutally.
I'm not surprised that there are not as many non submissive women in the 'lifestyle' as some would like.
You can't come from a species who has spent thousands of years grinding non submissive women into oblivion and think that you are going to get a lot of dominant women to interact with as a kinkster.
Are things better these days? Yep. But there is millennia of extreme social conditioning and breeding that have their claws in deep.

[jo****]

I really appreciated what you have said. I definitely am one of those new designations, DGLG it’s a softer and more nurturing form of BDSM and it resonates with me.

[jo****]

*DDlg

[sensualDom34]

The lifestyle has become fucked all the "subs" are just looking for "Dom's" that will serve and please them. All of a sudden it's all about the subs it's disgusting.

[Sc****]

I guess I won't stick around waiting for those four points. I'm sure they will be just as enlightened as the rest of that user's posts here.

Making oneself out to be a victim involved in an existential struggle due to the lack of words available to describe the highly specific way they like their ropes tied

:eyeroll:

[sensualDom34]

What a simp bitch. Anyway to be accurate and actually answer the question. Only Fans. Only fans and Instagram.

[Sc****]

1 hour ago, sensualDom34 said:

The lifestyle has become fucked all the "subs" are just looking for "Dom's" that will serve and please them. All of a sudden it's all about the subs it's disgusting.

I think that's the effect of all the BDSM "tourism" caused by romance novels and porn. The same reason you put quotes around "dom" is why I don't use that term.

I'd wager that up to 90% of the people on here are tourists just looking for a little spice, not people actively in the lifestyle. And that's fine, spicing things up is good. However, it muddies the waters here for those of us looking for actual kinksters. I stick around for that 10% though, I've met some great people here.

And funny enough, that 90%, the "submissive" females among them, they ALWAYS want to top from the bottom. That's our culture ***king it's head through. And they probably don't even realize it. I was talking about this with a friend just last night. The dynamics are completely upside down now.

This pseudo-dom adopts a role dictated by whatever the pseudo-sub's psychosexual needs are, not by their own internal compulsions. That's secondary, always, and if they're lucky. They implicitly accept the pseudo-sub's demand for (indirect) control. Dom-by-proxy, I suppose? The pseudo-doms act out the services the sub wants them to, on-demand, and both dutifully play the roles they are supposed to.

It takes two to tango, the saying goes. The men playing into this game aren't without responsibility. They accept that their "dominance" is contingent, and that it can be revoked at any time. They are around to serve the needs of the sub, not vice-versa. It's not an authoritative position, or one of power.

Everything I just described aligns with the newer romance novel-type perspective of BDSM. The fuzzy-cuff contingency is what I call it. Which is fine, takes all kinds. But as I said, it muddies up the water making it harder for serious kinksters to locate one another. If 90 out of 100 ads are "sub seeks dom" but in the terms I've just described...well hell, that gets tiresome to wade through after awhile.

What you're talking about though, that's still out there. Just a smaller needle in a bigger haystack now is all.

[Sc****]

deleted

Edited June 27 by ScalpelPrecision

[jo****]

I think women have owned their sexuality. But the lifestyle is about consent in conversation. That everything is discussed before hand, and there will be aftercare. Those are the tenants of true power exchanges.