When did it change?

[MasterTalathian47342]

To give some back story to this post I have been in the lifestyle since my ***s. I will be 55 this year. Though not in it every day or even every month or year I was always connected in some way to the lifestyle. I have helped run clubs and groups both online and in person. Ihave been a moderator and group owner to several online forums and chats and social networking groups. Have given classes and hosted classes. So all that to say I have a bit of experience in the lifestyle, online, in private and social settings as well.

So when did it all start changing? When did it become more segregated and why? When did it all become ok to just ignore people?

The lifestyle as I have known it over the years has changed and will continue to change. Like everything else it started out simple with 4 positions in the lifestyle. Dominant submissive Master and slave. That was it. Now there are so many designations for positions as well as stacking of positions. Used to it was inclusive. Used to it was a very social setting.

Now I see more kink shaming. Now I see more segregation. Now I see where people completely ignore others.

I understand how things change and why they change. It's the amount of change as well as the negative changes that I see not only here but in other places even at munches and such.

I go in occasionally into the chat here and I don't say anything typically. I just observe. However, what I do see is people coming in and they say hello or another greeting and because they are not there all the time or is their first time not one person even says hello to them. It's happened to me a few times but I see it happen constantly with the same people talking around anyone that they don't talk to normally.

When did it become ok to kink shame people? I see profiles where people talk about kinks and mention "they don't do that nasty stuff". I always thought this lifestyle was an inclusive and ever growing entity. Why is it one person's kinks are ok but another's are disgusting or nasty or something similar?

When did the segregation become so wide spread? Older people refusing to talk to younger and vice versa. D/s refusing to talk to M/s. Trans/gay being excluded, and various other segregating aspects.

When did all this financial domination become part of the lifestyle? When did pay to play become part of the lifestyle?

I have my thoughts on why things have changed and I know pretty much when they started changing as I have had this discussion on various other platforms and groups.

When I talk about this I am not talking about private interactions. I am talking about public things. And it's not just here. I have seen it on other platforms and even in clubs and such.

I am just wondering what others think about why this is happening and when it all started changing.

I accept change I just don't like negative changes that are detrimental to the lifestyle.

What your two cents?

[Ji****]

My thought like most things in our world? We’ve become more connected - and have found more of “our people.”

30 years ago; there was no internet. You had to know someone to get in. And you had to be very accepting because that was the only family or people who could recognize you.

So there was a big tent.

Now? I can find “my people” or “my niche” or “my kink” and have a very small tent. That feels much safer.

We now find ourselves in echo chambers more and more - despite the opportunity to expand.

To me it comes down to the desire to engage with cognitive dissonance - and be ok with those who see things differently.

I think there is also a sense of safety and entitlement. 30 years ago? Safety was a luxury. It was a risk. Today? It’s a given for the most part.

I hope this makes sense

[BigBalls317]

The way I see it, a lot of people want to personalize it. Make it their own in an effort to show off how unique they are. In my eyes, what you said is right. There are only truly a few different styles and people only fall into those few categories IRL but it sounds fancy on paper to use sophisticated terms. Like sure people aren't into some things but overall. They're into way more than the box they compartmentalize themselves in. You're not crazy. Stay woke

[bi****]

IMHO 2016 was when everything started going wrong everywhere, and that is all because the tribalism of society was encouraged. It was no longer acceptable to have a dissenting opinion, you had to conform and those who didn't were demonised. We still see it today - "the safe space is open to everyone, cisgender white men excluded", and so on. I think it is for political reasons, but this has spilled out to affect everything else, and there are those extremists who love to hate and they keep this tribalist "us not you" attitute going.

[Tw****]

Divide and conquer is a classic tactic for control. First you divide everyone into separate groups. Second you set those groups against each other. Third you conquer the weakest groups and absorb them into your mass. Fourth you repeat step 3 until you are the only one in control. The solution? Usually it's resolved by Molotovs and civil unrest... Cause of effect? Who can say...

[Ca****]

Well said. That's just the society we've created. Not just the kink community, it's everywhere. We've created an anonymous society free of consequences, and are surprised when people don't know how to interact with human beings. I see shit happening ALL THE TIME that used to get you knocked the fuck out where you stand. Now everyone thinks they have the right to say whatever they want, and YOU'RE the problem if you don't like it. God forbid you give YOUR opinion back. Just one of the many things about the society we've created that makes my skin crawl.

[le****]

It’s choice paralysis. Having a lot of options can be tough, because some people end up with the ever persisting thought that they could do better. Nobody wants to kink trade.Why put effort into someone else’s kink when you can just wait around for someone who will require zero effort, and already share all your exact desires? I’m being a bit facetious to make a point. But that’s essentially the problem. People have learned to glorify validation rather than real connection. They want things that merely validate everything they believe. If you challenge any of it, they will simply drop you and find someone who won’t.

[ka****]

Liquid Modernity. Apparently we're now living in an era that every relationship is disposable and the first tiny thing is a reason enough for giving up and going for the next loop of disappointment... So many options and yet we're all alone.

[MasterTalathian47342]

2 hours ago, Jimmy1912121 said:

My thought like most things in our world? We’ve become more connected - and have found more of “our people.”

30 years ago; there was no internet. You had to know someone to get in. And you had to be very accepting because that was the only family or people who could recognize you.

So there was a big tent.

Now? I can find “my people” or “my niche” or “my kink” and have a very small tent. That feels much safer.

We now find ourselves in echo chambers more and more - despite the opportunity to expand.

To me it comes down to the desire to engage with cognitive dissonance - and be ok with those who see things differently.

I think there is also a sense of safety and entitlement. 30 years ago? Safety was a luxury. It was a risk. Today? It’s a given for the most part.

I hope this makes sense

Makes good sense. Thank you

[Da****]

I see the same thing in messages! I can't seem to get a message back, whether I use one of these pre-canned ice breakers (which all suck, btw) or I make one. But my partner, on the other hand, she gets so many messages she doesn't have time to read them all. Where's the equality??

[Sc****]

People are built to moralize, as well as build fortresses of "us v. them". It's in our ***. We're also from the last generation who was taught that politics, religion, and sex were not topics to be discussed in polite company. The generations that followed tossed that out the window as they adopted identity politics.

Now it's all about the label. Not "Hi, I'm Joe or Suzy", but "Hi, my pronouns are this, my interests are that, label upon label upon label." What's lost in that self-identifying arms race is personhood.

That said, I've seen the shift as well. Others have already mentioned it, but the advent of the Internet and the rise of kink microcosms is a huge part of it. The social toxin of identity-politics, in tandem; the piling on of label after label after label. All in pursuit of being "unique". This lends itself to amplifying the segregation.

I'm ***ting broad strokes obviously. Of course it's not everyone from the newer generations that buys in to this, but a whole ton of them do.

I have very distinct memories of biting my tongue out of politeness, or in pursuit of being tolerant (the real kind, not the new kind). Where us older members tried to live by "whatever floats your boat man", the younger ones adopt that stance, but only if it is in accordance to the monoculture of the Internet. And even then it's about what's fashionable at the moment. I was in the only (to my knowledge, and from what I was told by many trans people) subculture (goths) of our generation that was openly accepting of trans people, for example. Just as I am sure they still exist now, some of them were openly Republican. No one gave a shit. Maybe, at worst, someone whispered amongst their friend group if they didn't like that, but the confrontation wasn't there. I can't imagine how that would play out today. Well, I guess I actually can. It wouldn't be good.

That's the other part that gets me. Where did the celebration of the  unique go? Of the weird? Now, if you lock-in with a label, you effectively have to be in lock-step with the existing group dynamics, to your own peril. And not to go too far off the rails, just another observation of changes though (get off my lawn young whipper-snappers!) is the allegiance the younger generations have to institutions and government. What the actual fuck happened here?

At its core, it's a type of extreme conservatism with, at time, fascist elements. That it's okay to this type to destroy people, their career, their lives, etc., because they cannot tolerate something they said or did, their beliefs....that's just bad. And worse, they don't see it that way. Their view is that they are morally superior. It's a bizzaro-world inversion of the oppression that historically came from religious groups.

Speaking specifically of Americans here, we've always had a large contingent of Puritans. Except now it's not religion they are bludgeoning people over the head with.


tldr; things which should have amplified our tolerance instead cleaved us off into loud and sometimes shitty-behaving groupings. Media and institutions capitalized on this, adding to the effect.

[MasterTalathian47342]

1 hour ago, BigBalls317 said:

The way I see it, a lot of people want to personalize it. Make it their own in an effort to show off how unique they are. In my eyes, what you said is right. There are only truly a few different styles and people only fall into those few categories IRL but it sounds fancy on paper to use sophisticated terms. Like sure people aren't into some things but overall. They're into way more than the box they compartmentalize themselves in. You're not crazy. Stay woke

Lol. Thank you for your comment.

[MasterTalathian47342]

1 hour ago, bittenkiss said:

IMHO 2016 was when everything started going wrong everywhere, and that is all because the tribalism of society was encouraged. It was no longer acceptable to have a dissenting opinion, you had to conform and those who didn't were demonised. We still see it today - "the safe space is open to everyone, cisgender white men excluded", and so on. I think it is for political reasons, but this has spilled out to affect everything else, and there are those extremists who love to hate and they keep this tribalist "us not you" attitute going.

Good points thank you

[MasterTalathian47342]

1 hour ago, TwistedTreat69 said:

Divide and conquer is a classic tactic for control. First you divide everyone into separate groups. Second you set those groups against each other. Third you conquer the weakest groups and absorb them into your mass. Fourth you repeat step 3 until you are the only one in control. The solution? Usually it's resolved by Molotovs and civil unrest... Cause of effect? Who can say...

Thanks for the comment

[MasterTalathian47342]

1 hour ago, CasualPlay said:

Well said. That's just the society we've created. Not just the kink community, it's everywhere. We've created an anonymous society free of consequences, and are surprised when people don't know how to interact with human beings. I see shit happening ALL THE TIME that used to get you knocked the fuck out where you stand. Now everyone thinks they have the right to say whatever they want, and YOU'RE the problem if you don't like it. God forbid you give YOUR opinion back. Just one of the many things about the society we've created that makes my skin crawl.

Agree

[MasterTalathian47342]

44 minutes ago, Antman603 said:

It’s choice paralysis. Having a lot of options can be tough, because some people end up with the ever persisting thought that they could do better. Nobody wants to kink trade.Why put effort into someone else’s kink when you can just wait around for someone who will require zero effort, and already share all your exact desires? I’m being a bit facetious to make a point. But that’s essentially the problem. People have learned to glorify validation rather than real connection. They want things that merely validate everything they believe. If you challenge any of it, they will simply drop you and find someone who won’t.

Completely agree

[MasterTalathian47342]

29 minutes ago, kassio_alves7 said:

Liquid Modernity. Apparently we're now living in an era that every relationship is disposable and the first tiny thing is a reason enough for giving up and going for the next loop of disappointment... So many options and yet we're all alone.

Agree

[MasterTalathian47342]

6 minutes ago, DaLumberSnax said:

I see the same thing in messages! I can't seem to get a message back, whether I use one of these pre-canned ice breakers (which all suck, btw) or I make one. But my partner, on the other hand, she gets so many messages she doesn't have time to read them all. Where's the equality??

Women will always have more than men just because men act like dogs and hungry and thirsty. No not all men true. Go on a gay site and put in a women's profile and you would still get inundated because female.

[Da****]

Just now, MasterTalathian47342 said:

Women will always have more than men just because men act like dogs and hungry and thirsty. No not all men true. Go on a gay site and put in a women's profile and you would still get inundated because female.

Fair enough.... I'm just not desperate enough to care 😂

[MasterTalathian47342]

9 minutes ago, ScalpelPrecision said:

People are built to moralize, as well as build fortresses of "us v. them". It's in our ***. We're also from the last generation who was taught that politics, religion, and sex were not topics to be discussed in polite company. The generations that followed tossed that out the window as they adopted identity politics.

Now it's all about the label. Not "Hi, I'm Joe or Suzy", but "Hi, my pronouns are this, my interests are that, label upon label upon label." What's lost in that self-identifying arms race is personhood.

That said, I've seen the shift as well. Others have already mentioned it, but the advent of the Internet and the rise of kink microcosms is a huge part of it. The social toxin of identity-politics, in tandem; the piling on of label after label after label. All in pursuit of being "unique". This lends itself to amplifying the segregation.

I'm ***ting broad strokes obviously. Of course it's not everyone from the newer generations that buys in to this, but a whole ton of them do.

I have very distinct memories of biting my tongue out of politeness, or in pursuit of being tolerant (the real kind, not the new kind). Where us older members tried to live by "whatever floats your boat man", the younger ones adopt that stance, but only if it is in accordance to the monoculture of the Internet. And even then it's about what's fashionable at the moment. I was in the only (to my knowledge, and from what I was told by many trans people) subculture (goths) of our generation that was openly accepting of trans people, for example. Just as I am sure they still exist now, some of them were openly Republican. No one gave a shit. Maybe, at worst, someone whispered amongst their friend group if they didn't like that, but the confrontation wasn't there. I can't imagine how that would play out today. Well, I guess I actually can. It wouldn't be good.

That's the other part that gets me. Where did the celebration of the  unique go? Of the weird? Now, if you lock-in with a label, you effectively have to be in lock-step with the existing group dynamics, to your own peril. And not to go too far off the rails, just another observation of changes though (get off my lawn young whipper-snappers!) is the allegiance the younger generations have to institutions and government. What the actual fuck happened here?

At its core, it's a type of extreme conservatism with, at time, fascist elements. That it's okay to this type to destroy people, their career, their lives, etc., because they cannot tolerate something they said or did, their beliefs....that's just bad. And worse, they don't see it that way. Their view is that they are morally superior. It's a bizzaro-world inversion of the oppression that historically came from religious groups.

Speaking specifically of Americans here, we've always had a large contingent of Puritans. Except now it's not religion they are bludgeoning people over the head with.


tldr; things which should have amplified our tolerance instead cleaved us off into loud and sometimes shitty-behaving groupings. Media and institutions capitalized on this, adding to the effect.

Very well did. Thank you.

[MasterTalathian47342]

17 minutes ago, DaLumberSnax said:

Fair enough.... I'm just not desperate enough to care 😂

I understand me either. If someone doesn't want to talk i just leave them alone. I do photography and sometimes comment on people's photos not hitting on them or anything just a compliment and they get ***ed at a compliment because it's from a guy. So you can't even compliment women any more because of how men are towards them. All I say is like "lovely photos your very photogenic. Have a good day" and they either completely ignore me, block me, or get mad.

[Sc****]

17 minutes ago, MasterTalathian47342 said:

Women will always have more than men just because men act like dogs and hungry and thirsty. No not all men true. Go on a gay site and put in a women's profile and you would still get inundated because female.

The entire sexual economy would collapse if guys didn't at least act so thirsty. The power differential would shift.

Relatedly, I get why some women throw the walls up real fast though. I've had a handful of times I was pursued by gay men and a few of them were relentless. Definitely felt they were not seeing the person, just a hole they wanted to conquer.

[MasterTalathian47342]

5 minutes ago, ScalpelPrecision said:

The entire sexual economy would collapse if guys didn't at least act so thirsty. The power differential would shift.

Relatedly, I get why some women throw the walls up real fast though. I've had a handful of times I was pursued by gay men and a few of them were relentless. Definitely felt they were not seeing the person, just a hole they wanted to conquer.

Exactly. It can get ridiculous and even worse for women

[AKA_Copper]

My two pence.
Having just "4 positions" is to segregate. BDSM is a massive umbrella. To only include D/s and M/s is to exclude and isolate those with other kinks/fetishes. It is the opposite of "inclusive."
People are individuals. How I view D/s will be (and is often) different to how others view it and thats ok. But, that's the issue with labels. D/s, BDSM isn't a one size fits all. We don't all fit nicely into little boxes.
I'm clear about what type of relationship I want and I don't often entertain conversation with people who don't align with that unless I've seen them interacting in the forums and I've seen how they portray themselves. The reality is that we seek out what we're comfortable with, others who share a common ground.
Things change, people and society evolve. It's part of the human condition.
.
Im interested in when you think things changed and the why. I can probably hazard a good guess because it's always 1 of 3 or 4 points people who've been in the community for a prolonged period raise.

[ey****]

there's so much thoughts that posts like this bring up

I might dip in with others - but if everything was great in the 80s, 90s, etc. where is everyone? Particularly the women.  Because it is always a guy saying how much better things were then, yet you seldom here from women in their 50s and 60s about how happy/happier they were.