How to persuade a once old school bdsmer?

[qu****]

How do you convince someone who used to be in old school bdsm a few years ago, that BDSM has moved and changed over time, the same as it has always developed.

[ey****]

I think it's sometimes a little bit of a lost cause - that some folk are set in what they always knew and don't want to change

and some ways, a lot hasn't changed - we just see more than we used to.

[Psuedom]

Education, education, education.  That said, there's no point messing with a person's cognitive dissonance.  Earlier this year I asked for help from some site members regarding a foreseeable  event, sadly old school rules didn't allow them to help and the results were unpleasant.  I don't blame them for this as it's just who they are and I wouldn't want to change anybody in a way they weren't open to, people are just people.  There's no issue in continuing to have conversations, just never expect anybody to change their values because you asked them to.

[qu****]

I left it as we'll have to agree to disagree then, though it ended with me being told know I'm right and you're wrong , I changed the subject

[Deleted Member]

The old school days, the days when you had to show the community that you were worthy of inclusion, the time when you had a mentor who taught you eg the rules of BDSM and techniques before you were let loose on the members. Nowadays anyone can register on a site and call themselves Dom/Master/Owner or sub/slave.

[ey****]

I think in old v new

There's a lot that isn't really better, just different.

Firstly I guess the concept of 'old school' varies wildly by territory and region.   A lot of the modern ways almost brings together a lot of different ideas from different regions and without the gatekeeping which has both it's pros and cons

It's true, for example, these days people can pick their own title and this doesn't really say much about their actual experience and so folk have to do a lot of their own vetting and due diligence.  

One of the benefits and constraints of an older system where people were vetted on a community level is that people put trust in the community vetting system.  So they had security that the person they were playing with had passed the vetting.   

The only problem is this gave extra security to the person who had passed. And something a lot of ***rs hid behind, because they then had a title they'd earned, they were seemingly vetted so when they did something someone inexperienced wasn't entirely happy with this was brushed as being "how the community works" (and even if this wasn't abusive in itself, the individual has a right to preference outside of this) it also created more problems where people felt that their complaints wouldn't be taken seriously because someone was a respected/vetted/etc community member.

[DarkArts1066]

To throw my tuppence worth in …..
I think in some cases, it is difficult for a leopard to change its spots. K no what I mean by that, is two things.
One, that we all have our kinks for a reason. Something triggers them, and that becomes our focus over time.
Two, some people just don’t want to move with the times. And I get that. If something works for you in a particular way - then it does. That’s it. People on the fringe of that may see your approach as outdated - even antiquated - and it may well be … but the question here is this.
If it works for you - should you attempt to change it to be more ‘in line’ with current thinking ??

The real question after that is, can you find anyone to indulge in your particular kink - your way ??

And there I open the floor to the panel to discuss ……….

As I say, just my tuppence worth. In my view, there is no right or wrong way to indulge - unless someone is at risk of genuine harm.

[ey****]

1 hour ago, DarkArts1066 said:

To throw my tuppence worth in …..

absolutely

I think if someone has a way that works for them, they don't need to change how they do things

however, of course, an acceptance that other people do things differently and that's also fine.  

[TheBookCollector]

I think both "old' and "new" can learn from each.other. @eyemblacksheep, mentions vetting, its pros where that it in the main kept people safe, the cons it hid predators in plain sight, and the community would make excuses for the vetted top/dom, it was down to miscommunication, missreading of the situation, etc.

The "new" way is to speak up about these things and most importantly people at least listen with open ears and at least consider the possibility that what has been said its true, despite a persons standing in the community.

Why not.embrace the positives from both sides.

[Leisa]

Did you take the time to explain to them what the differences are? It could be that they don’t like the way most of the honorifics have seemed to go by the wayside. Personally I found the old ways of doing things to be much more secure and honorable. I don’t think I’ve ever been more uncomfortable than I was a couple of years ago walking back in after a long period away for a traditional to someone who couldn’t spell BDSM. While I have found a firm footing on the modern, I can see the lure to fall back into old norms. Hopefully they will take the parts of the old they love and learn to blend it in with the newer. While I still misstep on occasion, I appreciate both worlds and have earned the respect of my peers.

[sm****]

You get lost causes with both old and new.

Iv'e seen more old timers accepting the new changes as everything changes but seen so much disdain aimed towards them and how they were brought up or entered the scene.

Remember just a decade or so ago it was a totally different setup, most social events everyone takes for granted now, just were not there. It was a case of you have to prove your trust to be invited to mingle with other people and respecting their wellbeing and safety.

Today it's more a social media extravaganza, and the cult of popularity.  People didn't have so much access to online back in the day, so it was down to actual real face to face communication, learning and earning each others trust.  Which you lose a lot of with tinternet communications.

Yes you will get the odd few, who look like they are digging their heels in, but they have a reason, don't just wave them off without a second thought.  Same for new people entering the scene now, let them make their own decisions to which avenues they wish to follow be it old/new or a mixture of both. 

Remember the scene is about trust, communication and RESPECT.  I would never try and *** someone to think or do anything that is out of their safety/comfort zone, id respect them as id expect the same level of respect back.

[TheBookCollector]

16 hours ago, smeagol said:

You get lost causes with both old and new.

Iv'e seen more old timers accepting the new changes as everything changes but seen so much disdain aimed towards them and how they were brought up or entered the scene.

Remember just a decade or so ago it was a totally different setup, most social events everyone takes for granted now, just were not there. It was a case of you have to prove your trust to be invited to mingle with other people and respecting their wellbeing and safety.

Today it's more a social media extravaganza, and the cult of popularity.  People didn't have so much access to online back in the day, so it was down to actual real face to face communication, learning and earning each others trust.  Which you lose a lot of with tinternet communications.

Yes you will get the odd few, who look like they are digging their heels in, but they have a reason, don't just wave them off without a second thought.  Same for new people entering the scene now, let them make their own decisions to which avenues they wish to follow be it old/new or a mixture of both. 

Remember the scene is about trust, communication and RESPECT.  I would never try and *** someone to think or do anything that is out of their safety/comfort zone, id respect them as id expect the same level of respect back.

One of the local events had a policy that you had to attend local munches or be recommended, by someone known to them.then the policy changed about 2.5 years ago and it became more open.

[ey****]

43 minutes ago, TheBookCollector said:

One of the local events had a policy that you had to attend local munches or be recommended, by someone known to them.then the policy changed about 2.5 years ago and it became more open.

yeah there's a dungeon round here where...

their rules have changed over time but they tightened the rules about 8 years ago.  And it was very simple

To attend the events you have to be a member.  To be a member you had to have an exiting member vouch for you. The existing member also had to agree to at least take a partial responsibility for that persons suitability.  

Now, there is actually zero reason why events cannot work like that - but there are problems that will become obvious

Over time they softened it and I'm not sure what the existing rules are but it became a little bit that there was an afternoon event, you could attend that *without* being a member and if you attended three times (or, whatever discretion was applied) you could become a full member and attend the evening events and parties (I think if there was sometimes an event coming up that this could be waved through quicker if the person had no obvious flags)

I did get fast tracked, there had been a workshop day (which surprisingly few people attended) and I think this was slightly geared towards newer folk and it was possible from there to get a membership.  Generally, I think unless it's some form of 'advanced' workshop - that workshops should be more accessible to all (see the "if you're going to do this behind closed doors, we want you to be able to take good practice with you" argument I've used before) but still.

I think the bottom line is... it costs *** to hire or open a lot of places and it's not even necessarily about turning a nice fat wedge, but, that, if you don't at least break even you can't really stay open.  

I think a lot of 'costs' have increased at a lot faster rate than is seemingly justifiable to add to a membership or entry price (entry prices are very regional - but we had a club night up which was like £12 which I think was insanely cheap, especially as the night often had little change leftover after paying costs... similar elsewhere in the country were £20-£30) 

So yeah, a lot of places have had to be a little bit more open in order to *stay* open.  Even before the pandemic also.

[Phoenyx]

On 9/3/2021 at 12:17 PM, quietlysure said:

I left it as we'll have to agree to disagree then, though it ended with me being told know I'm right and you're wrong , I changed the subject

I'm just curious:  What was the specific argument about?

I have seen both "the old" and "the new" (though I have to admit that my experience with "the new" has been has been limited to "online").  I have even seen the "really old" (early-to-mid 80's).  Yet, through all of that, I have never seen any conflict of ideas---just new things added.

About the only place where there might be a disagreement, involves Dom/me training.  The "old-school" belief is that one cannot gain the empathy to be a Dom/me, unless they have first served as a sub or slave.  Though from may perspective, that seems like the best way, it is certainly not the only way.  It is just the way that I happened to learn.

Another old-school sticking point might be "high protocol".  Still, that is not as "old school" as some might claim.  Back in the 80's, there was no public "Scene", except maybe the gay men's "Leather Scene".  For the rest of us, there was only a loose association of a few like-minded folks, and a few small "play parties" behind closed doors.  "Formality" was still in its infancy, and "The Scene" (what there was of it) had a more post-apocalyptic, "Road Warrior" vibe.  That is, if there was a vibe at all.  Sometimes, get-togethers seemed like little more than old "swingers" parties from the 60's---just with more leather.  Also, back in the 80's, "Cuckholding" was really big---though it was never my thing.

It wasn't until the early 90's, that today's "Scene" began to form---with public clubs and fetish events.  That was when "high protocol" began to become the norm.  Events began to have a more Renaissance-Era theme.  This new iteration became so pervasive, that many began to believe that it was the only way!   Since then, many new aspects have been added to the BDSM Scene.  In fact, if I had the chance to attend a fetish event today, I would likely be seen as an anachronism.  High Protocol is no longer as popular as it once was.