Punishments In Dynamics

[CopperKnob]

I wrote a piece on this yet it's too personal to post but I wanted to ask; if anyone has had/has a dynamic where punishments (not funishments) are NOT used.

A while back I saw an image of an s-type being punished for their "mistakes." And it's been playing on my mind. I struggle with the idea of punishments generally, irrespective of kink. Given enough punishments over enough time, I think it would kill me.

Literally.

It would be more  damaging, to me, than the five point palm exploding heart technique.

I don't see much written about it. We seem to simply accept that if a D-type writes their name on the left side of the slash, they're wise and humble enough to use discipline as a means of correction for, what may be normal human behaviour. It's there clear as day in every bit of BDSM erotica. We see it regularly played out on the various fet sites. It's expected. It's a given. Or, so it seems.

I've said before that high protcol dynamics don't interest me and obviously everything 'should' be consensual but, I clearly have a bias when it comes to this aspect. My objectivity is about as whole as a breadcrumb.

So, views?

[ey****]

Punishments often sit uncomfortable with me.

A lot does depend on the context but it sometimes feels that there are people who seem a little too keen to have 'agreed' punishments with their sub.  

I guess a question here... is...

Given consent should be able to be revoked at any time - if a Dominant tells their submissive they are to be punished and the sub says "No" - what happens next?  And that is something I think is a difference maker for me.

--

I think there are a lot valid dynamics I wouldn't wish to deride and I'm sure there are subs who are "No, being corrected for a mistake no matter how trivial is key to our dynamic" that's fair - but it's important to be happy in the dynamic.  I worry how many hide abuse under "punishment" whilst also not wanting to put down genuine consensual dynamics.

--

For me, punishments don't interest me. If I've done something wrong or someone who is a sub to me has done something wrong, let's talk it out and resolve like adults.

[UK****]

First things first, no two d/s relationships are the same or indeed written in blood (unless that's your kink!). Yes, often discipline/punishment is used to correct behaviour, however, that doesn't need to be the case.

It's like the old joke, the masochist says to the sadist, "I've been bad, will you punish me" and the sadist says "no" (with a smile).

What would work for you to correct any agreed behaviour issues? Any dom you are with needs to understand you and what works, even if it isn't what they are used to.

[so****]

Yes I have heard of dynamics like that. In fact, I briefly experimented with the idea a couple years ago. My very first submissive was the polar opposite of a masochist. She wasn't into degradation either. If anything she had what would best be described as a praise kink. We were both new to bdsm & we were more attracted to the power exchange dynamic than anything else. No punishments were used during that relationship. Some rough stuff here & there, sure. Playful rules, etc. But no actual punishments, degradation or impact. It was an excellent learning experience & helped shape me into the soft switchy Dom I am today. I don't like pain either. Or punishments. It's the power exchange that I like the most & I find there's a lot of people who share this view. Thank you for bringing up this subject, as many people just don't realize it. You're also much better at articulating these thoughts than I am lol so I'll leave it at this: I understand 👍😊

[Ar****]

You've brought up an oft overlooked topic, and perhaps I ought to chew it over somewhat before I contribute. It doesn't help that no two dynamics are the same.

I don't think true, harmful punishments - not funishments or acts where a D-type has deliberately been pushed for a desired response from their sub - in a kink relationship are all that different from those in a vanilla relationship. They can be truly damaging and if one were to mete a true punishment out I think one should be looking very closely at one's character.

If somebody upsets me I want to talk and resolve the matter, not damage them.

That said I can think of a couple of an example or two where I've used punishments hopefully ethically and with partners who agree such things should be part of the dynamic. They've tended to be non-physical and involved things such as reduced screen/game time, no chocolate (or ice cream 😉), that sort of thing, typically as a result of not doing something (application form, drinking enough fluids, eating properly) - I've found on some occasions partners have requested I keep on top of them about such things and take away privileges to help motivate them. But I don't think that's the sort of punishment you're talking about, and either way I'm much happier (and more comfortable) rewarding good behaviour.

[CopperKnob]

19 minutes ago, UK_Knight said:

First things first, no two d/s relationships are the same or indeed written in blood (unless that's your kink!). Yes, often discipline/punishment is used to correct behaviour, however, that doesn't need to be the case.

It's like the old joke, the masochist says to the sadist, "I've been bad, will you punish me" and the sadist says "no" (with a smile).

What would work for you to correct any agreed behaviour issues? Any dom you are with needs to understand you and what works, even if it isn't what they are used to.

Ok so, my question would be, does behaviour 'need' to be corrected? Of course it depends on the terms of the dynamic and what's agreed

[Ar****]

19 minutes ago, UK_Knight said:

It's like the old joke, the masochist says to the sadist, "I've been bad, will you punish me" and the sadist says "no" (with a smile).

Haha absolutely, now that you mention it I confess I have been known to punish by not punishing, when a partner has been deliberately acting up (trying to top from the bottom, as it were) - and I've enjoyed grinning at their frustration every time 😆

[CopperKnob]

13 minutes ago, sonofthunder777 said:

Yes I have heard of dynamics like that. In fact, I briefly experimented with the idea a couple years ago. My very first submissive was the polar opposite of a masochist. She wasn't into degradation either. If anything she had what would best be described as a praise kink. We were both new to bdsm & we were more attracted to the power exchange dynamic than anything else. No punishments were used during that relationship. Some rough stuff here & there, sure. Playful rules, etc. But no actual punishments, degradation or impact. It was an excellent learning experience & helped shape me into the soft switchy Dom I am today. I don't like pain either. Or punishments. It's the power exchange that I like the most & I find there's a lot of people who share this view. Thank you for bringing up this subject, as many people just don't realize it. You're also much better at articulating these thoughts than I am lol so I'll leave it at this: I understand 👍😊

Thank you, this resonates. The power exchange with a praise kink, rules, structure and the odd funishment. "Im disappointed in you" and punishments are my kryptonite

[CopperKnob]

1 minute ago, Aranhis said:

Haha absolutely, now that you mention it I confess I have been known to punish by not punishing, when a partner has been deliberately acting up (trying to top from the bottom, as it were) - and I've enjoyed grinning at their frustration every time 😆

Which then raises the point of varybing degrees of punishment and, back to negotiation

[Ar****]

Just now, CopperKnob said:

Which then raises the point of varybing degrees of punishment and, back to negotiation

Yes. You have to agree what works for the two (or more) of you and be prepared for that to evolve as you grow and learn together.

[allshookup]

This has me curious about what a friend and i discussed. She says bdsm always involves pain. I disagree with her.
Hope I didn't steer off your o.p. with this copperknob.

[Leisa]

I’ve had a Dom who punished excessively. He knew shutting down conversation absolutely killed me and would use it every single time I displeased him even though told it killed my spirit. To me a disappointment should be discussed but that was not his way. He’d then tell me to stay out of my head. It was a lose lose situation. I’d inevitably get into my head wondering what I did wrong. Needless to say the dynamic did not survive. As a result I’ve considered going back to a vanilla situation because of someone cannot respect that my one form of punishment is unacceptable to me is being used at least with vanilla I can protest more effectively.

[Th****]

This is purely my personal opinion and of course I go along fully with the whole dynamics may vary school of thought that has been so well made above.

The border for me is that I never give physical punishment if there is no element of funishment and it is meant purely as a brute force detterent

Two main reasons for this.

1. At this point this is where we need to sit down and have a conversation, trust be a conversation can be worse. It also helps you both understand the reasons for the incident and come to a balanced conclusion as to how this can be avoided.

2. I have to live with my self and while I will happily flog and spank someone for hours who is enjoying it I am not happy with doing that as a punishment. I would rather use boredom.

To conclude I think when you hit that point it is the perfect point for a time out and a chat. As normally your sub is trying to please you so for this stage to be reached it must be time to ensure your communication is on the ball.

[Leisa]

13 minutes ago, Thebian said:

This is purely my personal opinion and of course I go along fully with the whole dynamics may vary school of thought that has been so well made above.

The border for me is that I never give physical punishment if there is no element of funishment and it is meant purely as a brute force detterent

Two main reasons for this.

1. At this point this is where we need to sit down and have a conversation, trust be a conversation can be worse. It also helps you both understand the reasons for the incident and come to a balanced conclusion as to how this can be avoided.

2. I have to live with my self and while I will happily flog and spank someone for hours who is enjoying it I am not happy with doing that as a punishment. I would rather use boredom.

To conclude I think when you hit that point it is the perfect point for a time out and a chat. As normally your sub is trying to please you so for this stage to be reached it must be time to ensure your communication is on the ball.

And this is why I love you always. Sarah us one lucky woman to have you.

[MissTakenDeep]

Yeah, I also struggle with idea of punishment in place of funishment. I’m not here to have my emotions or MH played with and would never sign up to a Dominant partner who’d suggested punishments I know I’m going to find hurtful. That’s not what intimacy/trust is about.

[Deleted Member]

For me, when I’m in my submissive head-space in or out of a scene I always try to be the best I can be for my partner; I don’t want to be punished, if someone told me (and quite often strangers will inbox me with this) that they were going to punish me constantly I’d be absolutely terrified.

Punishing a on a regular basis, for me, is not what a dynamic is about. I believe if a Sub wants to have their behaviour ‘corrected’ to do so in communicating, not just going straight for a flogger or cane - Especially if that is going to make the Sub feel worse about behaving that way and perhaps take it to heart.

This is just what I think for me, not for everyone to follow. 😊

[UK****]

18 hours ago, CopperKnob said:

Ok so, my question would be, does behaviour 'need' to be corrected? Of course it depends on the terms of the dynamic and what's agreed

Well that again depends on what's been agreed as you say.  A dom may like things done a certain way, which could range from how they like their tea made to how they expect their sub to perform sexually (not saying either is or should be in any specific dynamic (however never make my tea in a cup! :-) ).  Now if a sub agrees with a dom that this is part of their dynamic then 'correcting the behaviour would be expected or the sub could rightly feel that the dom isn't taking an interest, if they fail to follow-up on their own rules.

Now does correcting need to be physical, CP etc, no, however we then border on another often seen trait of the scene.  Traditionally, it would be wrong in a vanilla sense to want to be spanked.  And likewise from an external point of view society sees the spanker as 'beating'.

So in the scene I see people who create reasons to receive what they want (the spanking) and reasons to explain their behaviour (the spanker).  This role play helps both sides to justify but still get what they want.  Now during this 'punishment', to an external viewer it would look like and sound like a punishment where the choice of the one being spanked wasn't in consideration but we know different.  It certainly wouldn't be seen as funishment.

 

[CopperKnob]

19 hours ago, Aranhis said:

You've brought up an oft overlooked topic, and perhaps I ought to chew it over somewhat before I contribute. It doesn't help that no two dynamics are the same.

I don't think true, harmful punishments - not funishments or acts where a D-type has deliberately been pushed for a desired response from their sub - in a kink relationship are all that different from those in a vanilla relationship. They can be truly damaging and if one were to mete a true punishment out I think one should be looking very closely at one's character.

If somebody upsets me I want to talk and resolve the matter, not damage them.

That said I can think of a couple of an example or two where I've used punishments hopefully ethically and with partners who agree such things should be part of the dynamic. They've tended to be non-physical and involved things such as reduced screen/game time, no chocolate (or ice cream 😉), that sort of thing, typically as a result of not doing something (application form, drinking enough fluids, eating properly) - I've found on some occasions partners have requested I keep on top of them about such things and take away privileges to help motivate them. But I don't think that's the sort of punishment you're talking about, and either way I'm much happier (and more comfortable) rewarding good behaviour.

Definitely not the type of 'punishments' i was thinking of no.
And i'd agree, if the s-type has a desire to please the D-type then it should (in my view) be reward based
Not the best comparision(!), but if we liken it to training a dog, there's no point yelling etc, eg punish to correct a behaviour, its best to stop the behaviour and distract with a more desired one

[CopperKnob]

18 hours ago, allshookup said:

This has me curious about what a friend and i discussed. She says bdsm always involves pain. I disagree with her.
Hope I didn't steer off your o.p. with this copperknob.

No problem at all, I like when others get thinking 😉

[CopperKnob]

14 hours ago, Leisa said:

I’ve had a Dom who punished excessively. He knew shutting down conversation absolutely killed me and would use it every single time I displeased him even though told it killed my spirit. To me a disappointment should be discussed but that was not his way. He’d then tell me to stay out of my head. It was a lose lose situation. I’d inevitably get into my head wondering what I did wrong. Needless to say the dynamic did not survive. As a result I’ve considered going back to a vanilla situation because of someone cannot respect that my one form of punishment is unacceptable to me is being used at least with vanilla I can protest more effectively.

How can you not overthink when you've not got the opportunity to talk things through and get the answers you need?!
I saw your post, I truly hope you don't leave, you'd be missed 💜

[CopperKnob]

9 hours ago, Adorable_Ash said:

For me, when I’m in my submissive head-space in or out of a scene I always try to be the best I can be for my partner; I don’t want to be punished, if someone told me (and quite often strangers will inbox me with this) that they were going to punish me constantly I’d be absolutely terrified.

Punishing a on a regular basis, for me, is not what a dynamic is about. I believe if a Sub wants to have their behaviour ‘corrected’ to do so in communicating, not just going straight for a flogger or cane - Especially if that is going to make the Sub feel worse about behaving that way and perhaps take it to heart.

This is just what I think for me, not for everyone to follow. 😊

This is the thing, as an s-type I want to please and for someone to be proud of me, disappointment and punishments are definitely kryptonite

[Deleted Member]

Just now, CopperKnob said:

This is the thing, as an s-type I want to please and for someone to be proud of me, disappointment and punishments are definitely kryptonite

Exactly 😊 but it’s interesting to see everyone’s points on here as well

[CopperKnob]

Just now, Adorable_Ash said:

Exactly 😊 but it’s interesting to see everyone’s points on here as well

Definitely!

[Dancingbear225]

I think that punishments within the d/s relationship should be clearly defined, such and such punishment for this or that infraction. The punishments and what constitutes an infraction should be negotiated before hand. Part of the need for discipline is a clear definition of the rules. Plus if a sub desires negative reinforcement/funishment they need to know what mischievous action will get them the desired response. Punishment on a sliding scale of cause and severity is not d/s, it's abuse.

 

[Sozu]

For me, punishments (as opposed to funishments) have no place in a relationship I’d be willing to participate in. Funishments and punishments can look the same from the outside, in method, intensity, whatever - but my view is that the agreement on what, why, when, how is what frames which it is, along with the right to say no. This is part of my wider view that. D/s dynamic should be wrapped in equality. And that equality wrapper means that if a relationship is hitting a bump moment, I feel the response needs to be stepping out of the dynamic for conversation on an equal plane.

It also feels a good idea to me to build in regular checkpoints for such a conversation, regardless of whether anything obvious is off kilter. As a relationship develops and the parties get to know each other and themselves more in the context of that relationship, new ideas, likes, dislikes, desires, etc may surface. A quick check-in and reset can ensure everyone is good with what they’re getting, giving and feeling