Binary or not

[Sire_Osiris]

Do you think in terms of binary?
Are behaviors based on traditional thinking toxic in nature? Are there shades of gray?
I ask these questions to excite the minds of people who can think for themselves.
Just because you embraces some gender norms does not mean every action and practice is oppressive or misogynistic.
Having a value system that encourages chivalry does not mean you don't believe in equality.
What are your thoughts on the matter? Tell me if you think men can be manly without being toxic and what does it look like to you?
I hope to hear from you on this point.

[ey****]

One of the problems is that there is a big difference between, say, "masculinity" and "toxic masculinity"

A problem is that... when someone speaks against "toxic masculinity" there are those that choose to hear it as an attack on masculinity, rather than negative aspects.

The of course next question is in defining things with "tradition" - there's an old saying that "tradition is just peer pressure from dead people" - but also a lot of things passed off as being "traditional" as if they are a part of rooted history often has less history or tradition than is claimed.

Chivalry is a good example of misrepresented traditions.

[Deleted Member]

@eyemblacksheep... can you please tell me your take on why " Chivalry" is misrepresented. Thank you.

[Carnelian2]

I think it depends on the context and expectations that underlie particular actions. Whilst opening the door for a lady may be considered chivalry - if it displays an underlying attitude of women being "*** or inferior" in a sense, then it is a toxic attitude.
If however, opening the door for a lady is done to be helpful and as a sign of respect and acknowledgement of the person, then it is most certainly not toxic.

So, back to the start which is that it depends on motives and attitudes of recipient and giver.

[CopperKnob]

19 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

One of the problems is that there is a big difference between, say, "masculinity" and "toxic masculinity"

A problem is that... when someone speaks against "toxic masculinity" there are those that choose to hear it as an attack on masculinity, rather than negative aspects.

The of course next question is in defining things with "tradition" - there's an old saying that "tradition is just peer pressure from dead people" - but also a lot of things passed off as being "traditional" as if they are a part of rooted history often has less history or tradition than is claimed.

Chivalry is a good example of misrepresented traditions.

Came here to say, masculinity is not equal to toxicity. Very different things.

[ey****]

1 hour ago, kiseu said:

@eyemblacksheep... can you please tell me your take on why " Chivalry" is misrepresented. Thank you.

One of the big problems with chivalry is it's a largely romanticised idea and even going back to middle ages there seems to stem more to fiction than to romance.

A lot of the writings on chivalry relate to things like patriotism, battle etiquette and defending the church than how to treat women.

Of those aspects that do relate to how to treat women, that the knights and gentlemen should serve ALL ladies, regardless of if they are attracted to them or not.   By extension, they should also serve and assist anyone less able than themselves regardless of gender.

What we know as chivalry is rather cherry-picked and comes from ideas from romantic fiction we like, it comes from romanticised ideals rather than any form of historical accuracy.

Of course; there are assorted behaviours women might enjoy from men especially during courting - and that is fine - but if say someone holds open the door, pulls out your chair... but then calls the waitress a silly cow under his breath because she makes an error with the order; then it's all performance and not really deemed chivalrous behaviour.

 

[Deleted Member]

@eyemblacksheep...sorry, I do have to agree with @CopperKnob regarding masculinity is not equal to Entitled Wankers🐑. Thank you to you and @Carnelian2. I need to think about chivalry, and process all the new informations, before making my own ideas.

[ey****]

17 minutes ago, kiseu said:

@eyemblacksheep...sorry, I do have to agree with @CopperKnob regarding masculinity is not equal to Entitled Wankers🐑. Thank you to you and @Carnelian2. I need to think about chivalry, and process all the new informations, before making my own ideas.

yep

Masculinity is not a bad thing

it's Toxic Masculinity which is

[Lord_Talion]

As black is a combination of all colors, consider the many shades of this lifestyle other than grey.