PhantomFlogger Posted August 12, 2022 To be clear im talking about the personality disorder not the slur. If NPD is a mental health issue should they be pitied and looked after? I've never met a person diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder but i know there are atleast 4 types. Grandiose- who think they are the centre of the world and treat everyone like objects, ones they dislike and ones they cherish. Malignant- always feeling like the world owes them something and you dont deserve things as much as they do. But always strive to be better and never settle Communal- gain status through gestures and actions, they believe they are better than you and have more liberties because they volunteer, give to charity, attend meetings or run clubs. Covert/ ***- a constant feeling they are disliked, bullied, prayed upon because nobody loved them with the passion they love themselves, and if you give them attention they will love you just as hard or drop you when you don't make them feel special. I can see how a Narcissist would enjoy being a Dom/me, all that power and submission, they can play out that fantasy. But is it healthy to feed into that if we know it adds to the delusion of grandeur? With Narcissists tendency to isolate and control people should we be supporting them or marginalising them? I heard people with BPD work well with people with NPD... is this true and is it healthy? Lastly, everyone claims to have fallen for a narcissist at some point in their lives, or fallen "victim" to one, are they really that common? And if we all fall for them, there must be something attractive about being around them. Is there such thing as a good Narcissist?
Dy**** Posted August 12, 2022 Many people have fledgling levels of narcissism. In a way, yes, there are such things as a good narcissist. But typically, the people who fall into that category didn't fall into their narcissistic tendencies until much later in life, after large amounts of confidence boosting got them there. Many leaders in business, civics, and even NGOs are diagnosable as narcissists, but didn't reach those levels until years after their brain chemistry settled. These people generally hit their narcissistic peaks in the process of becoming the leader they are, and the constant dependence placed upon them to make decisions cultivated it. These people would not be diagnosed as having NPD, but would be diagnosed as having narcissistic tendencies. Someone with NPD, has truly become toxic for that to be the diagnosis. They could be a leader somewhere, but they are likely the kind of leader that people quit on a moment's notice. They push people beyond the brink, and in a setting involving dozens of personnel, are unable to exact the kind of manipulation that NPD's are infamous for in their personal/intimate relationships. These are the types of leaders that carry put petty battles with employees, in front of all their co-workers, "just to prove a point." They are terrible, personally and professionally, and should be held accountable each time they do something outside of the rules. It is the only way to get through to them that they can't do the things they do.
Zela Posted August 12, 2022 Oh I would love to chat with you about this from a personal, psychological and academic perspective. I don’t want to get too nerdy/academic but there are some flaws in the questions you’re posing - it makes assumptions or draws conclusions with no evidence which skews the question and therefore the possible answers (sorry, was trying to avoid being a nerd!). Anyway, happy to chat about this if you want.
AKA_Copper Posted August 12, 2022 I don't think that anyone with mental health concerns should be "pitied". Empathised with, shown understanding and respect? Absolutely.
Wy**** Posted August 12, 2022 Clinical criteria for a mental health disorder (including NPD) requires an association with “distress, disability, or a significantly increased risk of suffering death, ***, disability, or an important loss of freedom”. So no, I’d say it isn’t a good thing generally speaking. (DSM-V; might be slightly different for ICD-10). Narcissist traits on the other hand can be associated with some positive outcomes.
PhantomFlogger Posted August 12, 2022 Author 2 hours ago, Zela said: Oh I would love to chat with you about this from a personal, psychological and academic perspective. I don’t want to get too nerdy/academic but there are some flaws in the questions you’re posing - it makes assumptions or draws conclusions with no evidence which skews the question and therefore the possible answers (sorry, was trying to avoid being a nerd!). Anyway, happy to chat about this if you want. Yes, id love to hear you get nerdy on this.
PhantomFlogger Posted August 12, 2022 Author 36 minutes ago, WyldKatt said: Clinical criteria for a mental health disorder (including NPD) requires an association with “distress, disability, or a significantly increased risk of suffering death, ***, disability, or an important loss of freedom”. So no, I’d say it isn’t a good thing generally speaking. (DSM-V; might be slightly different for ICD-10). Narcissist traits on the other hand can be associated with some positive outcomes. There are a lot of letters and symbols i dont understand in there, so for us lay people, could you explain what the positive outcomes are?
PhantomFlogger Posted August 12, 2022 Author 41 minutes ago, CopperKnob said: I don't think that anyone with mental health concerns should be "pitied". Empathised with, shown understanding and respect? Absolutely. I think the question I was really asking was more, what are the positives to having a partner with a NPD.
PhantomFlogger Posted August 12, 2022 Author 4 hours ago, Masterfsg said: No, there isn't Short and to the point.. i like it! But, it seems others disagree. Are you able to expand on why there are no good narcissists?
PhantomFlogger Posted August 12, 2022 Author 2 hours ago, DyingForLife said: Many people have fledgling levels of narcissism. In a way, yes, there are such things as a good narcissist. But typically, the people who fall into that category didn't fall into their narcissistic tendencies until much later in life, after large amounts of confidence boosting got them there. Many leaders in business, civics, and even NGOs are diagnosable as narcissists, but didn't reach those levels until years after their brain chemistry settled. These people generally hit their narcissistic peaks in the process of becoming the leader they are, and the constant dependence placed upon them to make decisions cultivated it. These people would not be diagnosed as having NPD, but would be diagnosed as having narcissistic tendencies. Someone with NPD, has truly become toxic for that to be the diagnosis. They could be a leader somewhere, but they are likely the kind of leader that people quit on a moment's notice. They push people beyond the brink, and in a setting involving dozens of personnel, are unable to exact the kind of manipulation that NPD's are infamous for in their personal/intimate relationships. These are the types of leaders that carry put petty battles with employees, in front of all their co-workers, "just to prove a point." They are terrible, personally and professionally, and should be held accountable each time they do something outside of the rules. It is the only way to get through to them that they can't do the things they do. Thank you for such a detailed reply, there is much to think about, but I'm still unsure where you stand on this. Is a Diagnosed narcissist going to have traits that lend themselves to BDSM in a positive way, or is being diagnosed a sign that they are too "Toxic" to be safe, sane or require consent?
AKA_Copper Posted August 12, 2022 22 minutes ago, PhantomFlogger said: I think the question I was really asking was more, what are the positives to having a partner with a NPD. Yep, I get that, it was still a point I thought was appropriate to make when we're looking at recovery theory. In answer to your question, that's not already been mentioned, as a potential positive of narcissism. Regardless what we may think of Freuds work, he suggested that an element of narcissism was necessary in relation to building a healthy Ego. Freuds view was that those with a poorly structured or weak Ego would be more susceptible to psychological concerns.
TyP99 Posted August 12, 2022 My ex was a narcissist, and yet she was a sub. I understand your point, however she fully understood that it is the sub who has the most control in a scene. You can have good narcissists, these are the ones who know what they are and receive therapy and actively work on acting against their nature. And speaking as someone who’s studying to be a psychotherapist, I believe there are a lot of people with narcissistic traits that people will simply refer to as narcissists and leave as that.
PhantomFlogger Posted August 12, 2022 Author @Zela youll have to initiate the PM as the site wont allow me to message first
Si**** Posted August 12, 2022 6 hours ago, TyP99 said: My ex was a narcissist, and yet she was a sub. I understand your point, however she fully understood that it is the sub who has the most control in a scene. You can have good narcissists, these are the ones who know what they are and receive therapy and actively work on acting against their nature. And speaking as someone who’s studying to be a psychotherapist, I believe there are a lot of people with narcissistic traits that people will simply refer to as narcissists and leave as that. I've had a couple of what I consider to be undiagnosed narcissists as submissive. Might just be traits of narcissism as previousy mentioned in comments above - but there were a lot of traits presenting in each of these individuals.
Lo**** Posted August 12, 2022 Absolutely not. Narcissists target people they can manipulate in order to get what they want. What they do is always for themselves, never for anyone else. If you end up the partner of a narcissist, you will end up torn to pieces, drained dry and thrown away when you’re no longer supplying them with what they need.
ol**** Posted August 12, 2022 26 minutes ago, Lockfairy said: Absolutely not. Narcissists target people they can manipulate in order to get what they want. What they do is always for themselves, never for anyone else. If you end up the partner of a narcissist, you will end up torn to pieces, drained dry and thrown away when you’re no longer supplying them with what they need. Sadly absolutely true.
ey**** Posted August 12, 2022 I think one of the problems with the term 'narcissist' is what images it conjures. Everybody, at some point in their life, develops narcissistic tendencies - this doesn't mean it's a bad thing - it's part of development process. NPD it's estimated affects around 1-5% of the population. I wouldn't say it should be pitied any more than any other disorder. Obviously if you are aware someone has NPD it might be you are more sympathetic to behaviours, but like anything else it can be difficult to tolerate especially if the person chooses not to try to help themselves. There is the old saying that you can have mental health issues - and still be a cunt. And of course, there are those who are narcissistic without any form of disorder - and as I say, we all have narcissistic behaviour traits - it just all depends on how we manifest those.
Leisa Posted August 12, 2022 I think that in being a Dom there can be qualities that may resemble NPD, but that should be where it stops. An individual who truly has NPD would be a dangerous Dom and should not be encouraged to exercise control over another. Mixed with NPD, many are also sociopaths who charm and lure in the unwitting. They’re dangerous and should be avoided at all costs. There’s no such thing as a good narcissist.
Lo**** Posted August 13, 2022 13 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said: Obviously if you are aware someone has NPD it might be you are more sympathetic to behaviours, but like anything else it can be difficult to tolerate especially if the person chooses not to try to help themselves. No narcissist ever tries to stop themselves from being a narcissist. They don’t even know that’s what they are. They live in a fantasy world they create and feed to those around them, which only remains real while others believe the fantasy. Anyone who starts doubting the fantasy has to be destroyed.
AKA_Copper Posted August 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Lockfairy said: No narcissist ever tries to stop themselves from being a narcissist. They don’t even know that’s what they are. They live in a fantasy world they create and feed to those around them, which only remains real while others believe the fantasy. Anyone who starts doubting the fantasy has to be destroyed. I'd agree. If we're talking about those with a diagnosis of NPD, which is a very small percentage of the population, I think it's unlikely that they will seek support. We're talking about individuals who lack self awareness. They may, through a significant life event like a divorce, the loss of someone who was significant source of narcissistic supply for them, being convicted of a crime, recognise that they have difficulties because they experience negative feelings like abandonment etc and they may want to work towards making changes but they get 'stuck' at the acceptance stage. The driver behind the want to change is down to narcissistic traits, a want to maintain their self perceived image of being superior to the outside world. So again, the negative emotions from the above fuels the narcissitic trait. In relation to seeking therapy/treatment, it's a disguised compliance. To engage with treatment, they need to accept vulnerability which is problematic because they already have a low sense of self esteem/self worth and to loose control of anything/any situation is even harder for them. They may appear to be doing the work but there'll often be an element of seeking approval/admiration from the therapist, trying to create another narcisstic supply. With that said, therapy has been sucessful in treating NPD, for some despite treating any personality disorder being difficult, essentially you're asking someone to change their whole personality. I also think though, that we need to, as difficult as it is, empathise with those that have NPD. It's not something that they truly have control of, it's a personality that's been developed through environment/s and is something they use to protect themselves.
Lo**** Posted August 13, 2022 32 minutes ago, CopperKnob said: I'd agree. If we're talking about those with a diagnosis of NPD, which is a very small percentage of the population, I think it's unlikely that they will seek support. We're talking about individuals who lack self awareness. They may, through a significant life event like a divorce, the loss of someone who was significant source of narcissistic supply for them, being convicted of a crime, recognise that they have difficulties because they experience negative feelings like abandonment etc and they may want to work towards making changes but they get 'stuck' at the acceptance stage. The driver behind the want to change is down to narcissistic traits, a want to maintain their self perceived image of being superior to the outside world. So again, the negative emotions from the above fuels the narcissitic trait. In relation to seeking therapy/treatment, it's a disguised compliance. To engage with treatment, they need to accept vulnerability which is problematic because they already have a low sense of self esteem/self worth and to loose control of anything/any situation is even harder for them. They may appear to be doing the work but there'll often be an element of seeking approval/admiration from the therapist, trying to create another narcisstic supply. With that said, therapy has been sucessful in treating NPD, for some despite treating any personality disorder being difficult, essentially you're asking someone to change their whole personality. I also think though, that we need to, as difficult as it is, empathise with those that have NPD. It's not something that they truly have control of, it's a personality that's been developed through environment/s and is something they use to protect themselves. No, from the OP, we’re talking about the diagnosis, not just people with the odd narcissistic trait. And, no, people with NPD do not need our empathy, neither do they want it.
Si**** Posted August 13, 2022 I have to say that both of my interactions with narcissists resulted in me feeling sorry for them for missing out on so much........ but they still think they have it all.
ey**** Posted August 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, SirArchA said: I have to say that both of my interactions with narcissists resulted in me feeling sorry for them for missing out on so much........ but they still think they have it all. as a total spin off if someone is content with feeling they have/are everything they need - is that a bad thing? That sure, we're all missing out on one thing or another - but if someone is content then it doesn't matter.
AKA_Copper Posted August 13, 2022 26 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said: as a total spin off if someone is content with feeling they have/are everything they need - is that a bad thing? That sure, we're all missing out on one thing or another - but if someone is content then it doesn't matter. I think that generally no it's not a bad thing, but for people with NPD, they will have created a persona/fictitious world to mask the deficits they think they have. I also think, and again heading in another direction, that generally no one is genuinely happy (or content ☺️) with contentment, Maslows hierachy of needs indicates that we're all striving for that top level of his triangle, maybe at different rates or with different levels of determination, but that we're all looking to better ourselves, improve our situations. Maybe, arguably, there's an element of narcissism in that?
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