excerpt from a letter to a Dom who talked to me about negotiation and enthusiastic consent, but did not negotiate with me

[pomonagirl909]

i'm writing because i did want to get some things off my mind about the time when we spent the night together, i know it was a long time ago but it's been on my mind.

 
i feel like you didn't negotiate with me much and/or tell me what was going to happen, which was surprising to me since you really seem to be highly invested in negotiations and "enthusiastic/informed consent".

 
i guess it was really naive of me to think that there wasn't going to be sex....but you had only mentioned doing rope and impact play with me, and letting me sleep in the air conditioned hotel room. i know we had talked about sex during conversations, but never negotiated for it for that night.

 
Also, back then i was just barely learning about all of this stuff...about negotiation and even about the fact that engaging in BDSM scenes without having sex was an option (i may not even have learned that yet). Honestly, at that point in my BDSM journey, i would go through the sex part with Dominants, not because i wanted to have sex with them or enjoyed it, but because i thought i had to do that to be able to do the stuff i wanted to do (impact and bondage).

 
i honestly DID expect us to sit down and negotiate/go through what all would happen before things started up that night, especially since you are such an advocate of communication, negotiation, enthusiastic consent. Even though i didn't like the idea of doing negotiations (not used to doing that since i had come from vanilla background) i was looking forward to it and was surprised when it didn't happen.

 
Honestly, if we had gone through things more thoroughly, i would have been able to tell you that i was not enthusiastic to have sex with you, especially not me being on top, and especially not you cumming in me/having sex w/o condom, doing oral sex, and me having to wear a plug during dinner (that was so bad and uncomfortable and it kept falling out. was not fun mentally or physically).

 
i did like you and respect you but just wasn't sexually attracted to you/didn't feel comfortable enough to want to have sex with you/exchange bodily fluids (not to say that attraction/comfort would not have developed in time, but it wasn't there for me at that point). i also had zero experience with a person with piercings which made the experience extra strange/not very comfortable.

 
Anyway, i know it's been a long time since that happened, and i apologize if i already brought this up to you in detail, but it's been on my mind lately and did want to tell you clearly. Not out of meanness or anything, but so that you might understand how it blindsided me, and that you might be able to be more careful in the future, especially with newbies who aren't used to negotiation or clear on what they want/expect from a session. i do feel like you are a man of integrity and i figured that you would want to know/care about it/take it seriously.

[Cheekysub247]

Well written and thought out. Sometimes just putting it out there helps unload feelings, helps heel. Helps others see what the effect can be on people when things like this happen. Helps new people see the possibilities x x

[typhoon2]

Part of the problem here is that he Dominated you, as in imposed his ideas and desires based on what he believed you'd agreed to, whereas it's clear that the scene was Topping/bottoming - a script was agreed in your mind that should have been followed, and not re-negtotiated ('silence infers assent') during the scene. What you experienced was NOT good BDSM and I find his conduct manipulative. Obviously experience and hindsight are great teachers, so I sincerely hope future encounters leave you much better prepared and able to enjoy them more, on your terms as well as their's. Sending this note is a brave and moral step, although be prepared for a backlash since he seems to care little for the welfare of you (and by extension other playmates) and probably won't like his ego being threatened, let alone damaged. I wish you well with it.

[CopperKnob]

58 minutes ago, typhoon2 said:

Part of the problem here is that he Dominated you, as in imposed his ideas and desires based on what he believed you'd agreed to, whereas it's clear that the scene was Topping/bottoming - a script was agreed in your mind that should have been followed, and not re-negtotiated ('silence infers assent') during the scene. What you experienced was NOT good BDSM and I find his conduct manipulative. Obviously experience and hindsight are great teachers, so I sincerely hope future encounters leave you much better prepared and able to enjoy them more, on your terms as well as their's. Sending this note is a brave and moral step, although be prepared for a backlash since he seems to care little for the welfare of you (and by extension other playmates) and probably won't like his ego being threatened, let alone damaged. I wish you well with it.

Silence does not, ever, infer consent. If you don't hear a "yes" the answer is always "no".
Consent 101

[typhoon2]

17 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

Silence does not, ever, infer consent. If you don't hear a "yes" the answer is always "no".
Consent 101

Agreed, hence the quote marks. It's a common misperception and it seemed that it was how this alleged Dominant operated. Enthusiastic, informed consent is generally recognised to be the aim and silence isn't enthusiasm. As an aside, Silence Infers Assent is how NATO and other organisations operate during debates. What works for some doesn't always transfer.

[Se****]

Call me old fashioned, but sex without consent = rape

[Ob****]

Gosh this is disturbing, I’m sorry that you went through that. He doesn’t much sound like a man of integrity. Your well-being and what you like/don’t like is no less important to that of a dom or anyone else.
I hope writing and posting that has helped you find a tiny bit of peace around the experience. And like typhoon2 says above, hopefully you can use this horrible experience to shape better ones in your future. Big hugs to you x

[se****]

It's sad to say, but alot of men don't listen to "Not ready or No sex". I give clear messages, and they say "Ok or No Problem". Knowing alot goes one ear and out another, I drill the message in their head. Guess what happens when they realize nothing is going to happen? They disappear like the wind.

Flip of the coin, it's not good alot of women use "looking for sex" under false pretenses to alot of men. It gives false ideas to men how geniune women like me "I am a person, a live human being, and not an IT".

OP, it was very beautifully written, and thank you.💖

Edited March 24 by seonny
Wrote it wrong.

[DarkArts1066]

As Doms, we don’t get to pick and choose how much we discuss or negotiate with a sub before we meet. It’s all - or nothing.

If it’s nothing, then walk away.

Anything other than discussion, negotiation - and most importantly agreement, is a form of abuse, or at best, self gratification at another’s’ expense (which is still abuse!)

I am approached by, and talk with a lot of new subs …. And sadly this isn’t new territory.

A lot of so called Doms, will tell you that it is the subs’ obligation to do their research and understand what they are getting themselves into, before they meet with someone.
This also, is simply not true.

As Doms we take on an obligation to be open and honest - and nurturing of a sub. There is no middle ground here.

I can’t take away what has happened to you, and has clearly left it’s mark with you, but what I can do is say that your approach will be different now - with a new understanding of what a good - and acceptable Dom is NOT.

And as a result of this, you will be safer and happier, and are better informed going into a new dynamic.

I hope the Dom whom you wrote this to, is big enough and strong enough to accept their failings, and to be better.

[pomonagirl909]

4 hours ago, seonny said:

It's sad to say, but alot of men don't listen to "Not ready or No sex". I give clear messages, and they say "Ok or No Problem".

This is so true!!! i've run into this problem as well. This is a huge reason that i shifted to only playing with new/casual partners at some of the bigger Dungeon clubs here in Los Angeles...most of the nights i attend don't even allow sex or genital contact so it became a non-issue. Plus, in general, people who are used to attending those kinds of events are usually much more used to non-sexual play and thorough negotiations. 

[ar****]

I always wondered how clear and well-defined the agreement terms are when dealing with these kind of deals. Some people may assume that vanilla sex acts are the standard and that the only required/added consensus would be "yes to spanking and pretty much anything else unless the safe word is used".
There could be standard contracts for these interactions, where the parties would check all the boxes that they're fine with and specify which they're not fine with. But the list would be neverending, as there'll always be an unforeseen situation.
.
Anyways, that may detract from the OP here. I'm sorry that you were taken advantage of in this manner. The guy is a narcissist egotistical jerk to say the least, not to even call him a blunt rapist.

[CopperKnob]

8 minutes ago, arnhem961 said:

I always wondered how clear and well-defined the agreement terms are when dealing with these kind of deals. Some people may assume that vanilla sex acts are the standard and that the only required/added consensus would be "yes to spanking and pretty much anything else unless the safe word is used".
There could be standard contracts for these interactions, where the parties would check all the boxes that they're fine with and specify which they're not fine with. But the list would be neverending, as there'll always be an unforeseen situation.
.
Anyways, that may detract from the OP here. I'm sorry that you were taken advantage of in this manner. The guy is a narcissist egotistical jerk to say the least, not to even call him a blunt rapist.

So kinda like actual negotiations?
If i'm "playing" with someone and I say yes to spanking and rope. Nothing else is on the table. Everything else is a "no"
Therefore, there are no unforeseen situations.
Why is the concept of consent so hard to understand?

[se****]

31 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

Why is the concept of consent so hard to understand?

I agree...

Here is another one that All these "suppose" Doms say, and I swear everyone of them said like a broken record. 

"I want to give her the greatest pleasures... GREATEST". Yet at the same time, they say "She must completely submit to me, and do whatever I say". 

Do you see what I am seeing? This makes no sense.🤦‍♀️

[DarkArts1066]

47 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

So kinda like actual negotiations?
If i'm "playing" with someone and I say yes to spanking and rope. Nothing else is on the table. Everything else is a "no"
Therefore, there are no unforeseen situations.
Why is the concept of consent so hard to understand?

You’d think - wouldn’t you ?

But it is sadly not always the case.

It is critically important to define those “no’s” - just as much as it is to define the yes’s.

It shouldn’t be - I know.
But it is.
That way we assume nothing, and everything is defined.

[CopperKnob]

22 minutes ago, DarkArts1066 said:

You’d think - wouldn’t you ?

But it is sadly not always the case.

It is critically important to define those “no’s” - just as much as it is to define the yes’s.

It shouldn’t be - I know.
But it is.
That way we assume nothing, and everything is defined.

Yeah, no. We don't get to do what we want with other peoples bodies just because someone has not explicitly said "no"
This comes up time and time again in SA/rape cases. People don't say no because they freeze. People don't say no because they fawn. People don't say no because they're non-verbal/unconscious/drunk etc. It's not a valid excuse
.
Of course, we can say "no" to specifics as they arise in conversation, but the list is endless and therefore unachievable.
.
Which is why, if it's not a "yes" you presume it's a "no" and if you need clarity about something specific, you ask. Of it's still not a "yes", it's still a "no"

[ar****]

2 hours ago, CopperKnob said:

So kinda like actual negotiations?
If i'm "playing" with someone and I say yes to spanking and rope. Nothing else is on the table. Everything else is a "no"
Therefore, there are no unforeseen situations.
Why is the concept of consent so hard to understand?

So, you meet with someone for spanking and rope. That's vague already. Spanking with anything, on everywhere, as hard as possible? Rope, does that include putting rope on your body, everywhere? Tying it so tight that you lose blood flow there?
.
And if it's just spanking and rope, that means no further talking, touching, kissing, hugging. Because when talking, you may not want kind words nor trash talk or degrading. So best avoid anything else not specified.
.
That was my question: how clearly defined are these kinky contracts typically? As an outsider, I imagine that "play" differs a bit from voluntary vanilla interactions, as I don't think people dating 'vanilla' and inviting someone to their bed in the heart of the moment will typically first sit down with them and write a contract together, describing everything they will be doing in advance? Of course I agree that consent is required (preferably in advance, especially for the 'harder' interactions), but some impulses during sex could come 'natural'? Like if you are on a date and both agree to have sex, even to say "have sex" is vague: for some this may or may not include oral, anal or even penetration at all. I think commonly, you'd first do some light touching, maybe some kissing, and basically read the partner as you both go along? And then, if it comes to intercourse, you'd normally assume it to be with a condom unless specified otherwise. Things like that may not be defined, but should be common decency and sense IMO.

[ar****]

17 minutes ago, arnhem961 said:

So, you meet with someone for spanking and rope. That's vague already. Spanking with anything, on everywhere, as hard as possible? Rope, does that include putting rope on your body, everywhere? Tying it so tight that you lose blood flow there?
.
And if it's just spanking and rope, that means no further talking, touching, kissing, hugging. Because when talking, you may not want kind words nor trash talk or degrading. So best avoid anything else not specified.
.
That was my question: how clearly defined are these kinky contracts typically? As an outsider, I imagine that "play" differs a bit from voluntary vanilla interactions, as I don't think people dating 'vanilla' and inviting someone to their bed in the heart of the moment will typically first sit down with them and write a contract together, describing everything they will be doing in advance? Of course I agree that consent is required (preferably in advance, especially for the 'harder' interactions), but some impulses during sex could come 'natural'? Like if you are on a date and both agree to have sex, even to say "have sex" is vague: for some this may or may not include oral, anal or even penetration at all. I think commonly, you'd first do some light touching, maybe some kissing, and basically read the partner as you both go along? And then, if it comes to intercourse, you'd normally assume it to be with a condom unless specified otherwise. Things like that may not be defined, but should be common decency and sense IMO.

*The "consent preferably in advance" part should be read as: preferably not during any playtime, but well before you start any play at all. Some things may be negotiated "in the heat of the moment", but as always the only true consent is the word "yes".

[DarkArts1066]

1 hour ago, CopperKnob said:

Yeah, no. We don't get to do what we want with other peoples bodies just because someone has not explicitly said "no"
This comes up time and time again in SA/rape cases. People don't say no because they freeze. People don't say no because they fawn. People don't say no because they're non-verbal/unconscious/drunk etc. It's not a valid excuse
.
Of course, we can say "no" to specifics as they arise in conversation, but the list is endless and therefore unachievable.
.
Which is why, if it's not a "yes" you presume it's a "no" and if you need clarity about something specific, you ask. Of it's still not a "yes", it's still a "no"

Copper - it is never a valid excuse. The onus is on both parties to agree on what is acceptable… anything that is not discussed - is not acceptable. Simple.
And - during a session, there should always be breakout moments where additional limits and options should be presented - for both parties. I believe with experienced people, this would be the case … but with one party less experienced - and therefore vulnerable …well, the math is simple - unfortunately.

I have far too many negative stories - mostly from newbies, than I would like. 😔

[se****]

4 hours ago, pomonagirl909 said:

This is so true!!! i've run into this problem as well. This is a huge reason that i shifted to only playing with new/casual partners at some of the bigger Dungeon clubs here in Los Angeles...most of the nights i attend don't even allow sex or genital contact so it became a non-issue. Plus, in general, people who are used to attending those kinds of events are usually much more used to non-sexual play and thorough negotiations. 

It's great you are going to a club, and it has no sex thing!👏💖 Hopefully, you will meet a Dom that has the qualities in what you are looking for, or make a friend. Or maybe some one will be a matchmaker for you. Anyways, to me it's better to find a person at a club, event or munches than online. Good luck!!🍀🤗💖

[Leisa]

You’re so lucky you got away before it got worse. This exact scenario is how my abusive experience began before it escalated. Consent equals to a verbal yes. It cannot be implied or inferred.

[CopperKnob]

4 hours ago, arnhem961 said:

So, you meet with someone for spanking and rope. That's vague already. Spanking with anything, on everywhere, as hard as possible? Rope, does that include putting rope on your body, everywhere? Tying it so tight that you lose blood flow there?
.
And if it's just spanking and rope, that means no further talking, touching, kissing, hugging. Because when talking, you may not want kind words nor trash talk or degrading. So best avoid anything else not specified.
.
That was my question: how clearly defined are these kinky contracts typically? As an outsider, I imagine that "play" differs a bit from voluntary vanilla interactions, as I don't think people dating 'vanilla' and inviting someone to their bed in the heart of the moment will typically first sit down with them and write a contract together, describing everything they will be doing in advance? Of course I agree that consent is required (preferably in advance, especially for the 'harder' interactions), but some impulses during sex could come 'natural'? Like if you are on a date and both agree to have sex, even to say "have sex" is vague: for some this may or may not include oral, anal or even penetration at all. I think commonly, you'd first do some light touching, maybe some kissing, and basically read the partner as you both go along? And then, if it comes to intercourse, you'd normally assume it to be with a condom unless specified otherwise. Things like that may not be defined, but should be common decency and sense IMO.

You're overthinking it.
.
Rope and impact. Of course this is negotiated in more detail. But if it's just rope and impact it means nothing else.
.
Penetration = sex. Everything else, such as oral is sexual activity
.
Assumptions are the mother of all 🦆 up's.
.
Consent is not a difficult thing to understand. If it's a yes, fine, if it's a no, it's not. If it's not discussed it's neither a yes or no so by default it's a no.

[littlemiss37]

Did u vet this guy and if so for how long ? I have been looking up about vetting because lovely folk of here was concerned about me because I'm new . So I'm vetting away x

[Leisa]

2 hours ago, littlemiss37 said:

Did u vet this guy and if so for how long ? I have been looking up about vetting because lovely folk of here was concerned about me because I'm new . So I'm vetting away x

I wish I could tell you how much is enough. I have known this individual for a few years. He’s friends with my girlfriends, none of whom are into the lifestyle, so I met him through them. We talked for months before anything related to the lifestyle came into our talks. Crappy part about it? My friends still don’t know that he’s in the lifestyle or that he’s abusive within it. In the last year, I’ve all but stopped going out with my girlfriends. Every time I see him out, he starts blowing up my phone, IMs, social media accounts. It makes me sick for weeks afterwards and brings back the nightmares.

All this to say, longevity is not necessarily the measuring stick.

[ar****]

7 hours ago, CopperKnob said:

You're overthinking it.
.
Rope and impact. Of course this is negotiated in more detail. But if it's just rope and impact it means nothing else.
.
Penetration = sex. Everything else, such as oral is sexual activity
.
Assumptions are the mother of all 🦆 up's.
.
Consent is not a difficult thing to understand. If it's a yes, fine, if it's a no, it's not. If it's not discussed it's neither a yes or no so by default it's a no.

Yeah, I'm quite an overthinker. But for someone like me who's less experienced, the negotiation details can be pretty incomplete I think? Like, one has to be pretty knowledgeable of rope and impact play to know what to discuss/allow in advance. That's why I wonder if there aren't any sort of standard consent form templates in the scene/this app, where people can just check boxes to be sure that only and all things are allowed that they're comfortable with. Like, do you whitelist toys/draw rope patterns in advance and do people really stick to that agreed script? If the spanking part isn't well defined, you may end up taking a sledgehammer to the groin if the Dom feels like that constitutes the "plain" spanking that you consented with?

[CopperKnob]

1 hour ago, arnhem961 said:

Yeah, I'm quite an overthinker. But for someone like me who's less experienced, the negotiation details can be pretty incomplete I think? Like, one has to be pretty knowledgeable of rope and impact play to know what to discuss/allow in advance. That's why I wonder if there aren't any sort of standard consent form templates in the scene/this app, where people can just check boxes to be sure that only and all things are allowed that they're comfortable with. Like, do you whitelist toys/draw rope patterns in advance and do people really stick to that agreed script? If the spanking part isn't well defined, you may end up taking a sledgehammer to the groin if the Dom feels like that constitutes the "plain" spanking that you consented with?

I think you need to read up on consent. Just because someone signs a contract or a consent form doesn't mean that they can't withdraw consent in the moment.
That's why there are safewords.