Kinky Kritical Thinking

[de****]

Criticism- the tool to which ALL humans learn. Learning via our mistakes. Which means it requires someone of critical thinking to explain what our mistakes are, in exact finite detail so as there is no confusion between right and wrong action. Without those exact details, the recipient is doomed to repeat the same mistake over and over and over again. This is even more important when laying out rules, otherwise with abstract and vague rules, a person is guaranteed to break them not knowing exactly why they are broken.

This is absolutely essential in all relationships, particularly in power dynamic relationships. It is common knowledge that in bdsm/kink that you discuss in exact detail what each persons goals and limits are. It’s essential to know the exact details BEFORE because it exactly determines if the relationship with that person is the correct one.that’s where your kinky critical thinking skills are essential……particularly for your trust and safety of and from the other person. I would add to this that if the person is not open to criticism, or is only accepting of a certain kind of criticism, then they are not open to diversity, learning all points on any topic. The truth more often than it is ***ful, which *** and *** a lot of kinky people are into, but you need the WHOLE truth in order to properly sustain your life. So, I would suggest be very critical of those who can’t accept criticism, particularly in bdsm/kink, because your life depends on it. Walk away (if you can) from anyone that says “you’re doing it wrong” but doesn’t explain all the details why because they aren’t interested in yoyr progress, they are interested in control without your consent.

Observers should note that I have a university level psychology education, this post is based on proven research.

[ge****]

Being open to criticism, and being able to take it on board when it's actually warranted are of course good values to hold.
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However based on some of your previous threads I'd respectfully suggest you should perhaps listen to your own advice, as when people have criticised some of your views and provided clear reasons for their criticism (with many people saying similar things) your reaction has been defensive, confrontational and argumentative, rather than suggesting you are open to being criticised.
.
And I get it, no-one likes to feel they're being attacked, and sometimes the truth hurts - but you can't have it both ways either.

[Shilo66]

I agree with this. If any dynamic is to be successful, then communication, honesty, self-evaluation and the ability to accept constructive criticism between the partners is absolutely essential. No one person knows everything, despite what they may claim. All these factors lets everyone know where they stand and when and what they can push.... and crucially, how hard. For example, establishing safe words, sorting aftercare, preparation, and crucially, doing the ***y research properly before trying something new. For example, the number of times, I've had to stop people from using actual real candles on their partners for hot wax play!!!... they watched a porno that featured this, got turned on by it and went straight out to buy the candles!

Edited August 24, 2023 by Shilo66

[BreezyDay]

Precisely.

[de****]

4 hours ago, gemini_man said:

Being open to criticism, and being able to take it on board when it's actually warranted are of course good values to hold.
.
However based on some of your previous threads I'd respectfully suggest you should perhaps listen to your own advice, as when people have criticised some of your views and provided clear reasons for their criticism (with many people saying similar things) your reaction has been defensive, confrontational and argumentative, rather than suggesting you are open to being criticised.
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And I get it, no-one likes to feel they're being attacked, and sometimes the truth hurts - but you can't have it both ways either.

I can’t comment to your post because it’s off topic.

[de****]

Again, fully hashing out ALL the details and terms BEFORE HAND is essential for ALL relationships. OPEN conversation and criticism from BOTH SIDES is essential for progress.

[Ow****]

Noted re the university education.
I’ve no such education.
I thought it had been proven that the carrot is mightier than the stick (sorry for the mixed metaphor)?
So how does reward based learning fit with your philosophy? Or does it fit at all in a bdsm based relationship?

[de****]

33 minutes ago, OwnerOfU said:

Noted re the university education.
I’ve no such education.
I thought it had been proven that the carrot is mightier than the stick (sorry for the mixed metaphor)?
So how does reward based learning fit with your philosophy? Or does it fit at all in a bdsm based relationship?

Learning is its own reward. In the process of negotiation, before entering a bdsm dynamic, you can have hard limits (which demands details) and each party is free to say “that doesn’t work for me” but it would be more conducive to progress, relationships to facilitate MUTUAL understanding by explaining WHY those are hard limits and being open to acceptable alternatives. As far as I’m concerned, that open negotiation process is essential to bdsm/kink and is the functional antidote to prejudice. As assumptions are the shortest route to prejudice. Which such a vast diverse genre such as fetish/bdsm/kink can’t tolerate, which is why people oppose stifling by calling out “kink shamers”.

[Th****]

1 hour ago, OwnerOfU said:

Noted re the university education.
I’ve no such education.
I thought it had been proven that the carrot is mightier than the stick (sorry for the mixed metaphor)?
So how does reward based learning fit with your philosophy? Or does it fit at all in a bdsm based relationship?

You are correct on your understanding of the science. Reward based learning has been proven to be most effective and it absolutely has a place in bdsm, especially in the area of any type of behavior modification. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by ThaliaVirago

[Th****]

44 minutes ago, devilsdreams said:

Learning is its own reward. In the process of negotiation, before entering a bdsm dynamic, you can have hard limits (which demands details) and each party is free to say “that doesn’t work for me” but it would be more conducive to progress, relationships to facilitate MUTUAL understanding by explaining WHY those are hard limits and being open to acceptable alternatives. As far as I’m concerned, that open negotiation process is essential to bdsm/kink and is the functional antidote to prejudice. As assumptions are the shortest route to prejudice. Which such a vast diverse genre such as fetish/bdsm/kink can’t tolerate, which is why people oppose stifling by calling out “kink shamers”.

If you have a university level psychology education you should know that learning isn't it's own reward. That's learning theory 101 level stuff. Some even learn it it high school. 

[de****]

1 hour ago, ThaliaVirago said:

If you have a university level psychology education you should know that learning isn't it's own reward. That's learning theory 101 level stuff. Some even learn it it high school. 

I can’t respond to your comment either because it’s off topic.

[Tr****]

I can't disagree in the slightest. It has to be fully laid out. I struggled myself because of all that i didn't know and had terrible partners that were either incapable of explaining it themselves, or flat out chose not to. To this point, i would add, or at least recommend to all, that if you are in the position to have to educate, please do so with the utmost extent of your ability. You can make a huge impact on someone with that approach and truly help shape them as a person in general by doing so. I personally enjoy that, the new found realization tickles me to no end.

[4R****]

17 hours ago, devilsdreams said:

Criticism- the tool to which ALL humans learn. Learning via our mistakes. Which means it requires someone of critical thinking to explain what our mistakes are, in exact finite detail so as there is no confusion between right and wrong action.

The word "Criticism" has very negative connotations and is generally seen "finding fault". Whilst this will highlight that there maybe an issue, Criticism itself is not the way we learn as it focuses solely on the problem without providing or suggesting a practical, workable solution. Therefore Criticism teaches us nothing.

We learn through being taught and through self discovery. As you've pointed out, we can learn through our mistakes (trial and error) and so that person of "critical thinking" may need to be ourselves and the feedback that prompts us to be self critical is our own failure to achieve our intended results. To learn, we need to recognise the problem and then work to come up with ways to resolve issues, correct problems, and move forward. 

[4R****]

7 hours ago, devilsdreams said:

Again, fully hashing out ALL the details and terms BEFORE HAND is essential for ALL relationships. OPEN conversation and criticism from BOTH SIDES is essential for progress.

I agree, however there will always be things that will be missed or overlooked in prior discussions and these may not be apparent until they crop up mid scene/relationship or whatever. So there needs to be an element of learning "on the job" also.

[ey****]

Criticism can be damaging to relationships.   It can make someone feel bad about themselves, it can impact their mental health.  

It's also important not to mistake help, advice, feedback as outright criticism - but also, to accept feedback for what it is. 

But if you are going to constantly criticise (or be criticised by) a partner, why are you with them? 

In kink - communication is important and that communication might not what we always want to hear.  This could be at any stage - in both the discussing of play or relationship - or any form of after play feedback (as part of aftercare) 

So if you're discussing a scene that happened - what went well, where could there be improvements etc may have stuff one partner or the other doesn't like - it might be "you didn't vary things enough", "you could have been harder/softer", "I'd have preferred to spend a little more time doing this, and less that", "your feet were too clean/dirty" - all fair feedback and whether the other person likes this or not, well, they should be willing to listen.  Whether they actually want to change things from there is still on them.

If you're criticising your partner for those - why are you even playing with them?

It might be criticism is a step above, "I've repeatedly asked you not to do this and you still do", "You said you would do ________ and haven't", "You completely ignored my safeword - if you didn't hear it, then you need to improve" - and all these are more dealbreakers than learning opportunities.   

Also - there is a massive difference between 'critical thinking' (the ability to analyse facts objectively and form a judgment.) and 'criticism' (the expression of disapproval of someone or something on the basis of perceived faults or mistakes.) you seem to confuse the two a lot here.

[de****]

6 hours ago, 4RCH said:

The word "Criticism" has very negative connotations and is generally seen "finding fault". Whilst this will highlight that there maybe an issue, Criticism itself is not the way we learn as it focuses solely on the problem without providing or suggesting a practical, workable solution. Therefore Criticism teaches us nothing.

We learn through being taught and through self discovery. As you've pointed out, we can learn through our mistakes (trial and error) and so that person of "critical thinking" may need to be ourselves and the feedback that prompts us to be self critical is our own failure to achieve our intended results. To learn, we need to recognise the problem and then work to come up with ways to resolve issues, correct problems, and move forward. 

Not exactly. Criticism, which is telling you the truth so that you can better yourself, is perceived as negative because of the human ego. Humans tend to get emotional over being wrong or told what to do. It’s because of that ego that the recipient is “masked” from realizing that the protagonist is actually intending to help. Example your parent punishes you as a child for stealing cookies from the cookie jar, in the moment you may not know stealing is wrong, it might hurt to be punished, but in reality it’s teaching you an incredibly important value. Later in life you (hopefully) realize that the punishment was for the good. “Knowing all the details BEFORE” if parents explained WHY stealing is wrong (because it hurts others) BEFORE the cookies went missing, the child could have avoided the criticism from the parents. Just as all the details must be explained BEFORE you get into a bdsm/kink scene with someone, or agree to a websites terms. Here’s the caveat, little Johnny is allowed to contest the criticism of the parents, what Democratic society called “due process”, by the process of open dialogue, investigation and empirical evidence little Johnny can prove that parents are wrong and in fact it was *** Susie that stole the cookies. Essentially criticizing the parents for making a decision that wasn’t properly investigated. Again, this perceivable damages the parents ego, can they accept that their child bettered them? What happens when there is no open conversation, no investigation as to TRUE intention? Nobody learns, they just become authoritarian protagonist or bitter recipient. In the case of bdsm, a recipient has a safeword, can rescind consent. It is helpful to the scene if the protagonist already knows ALL the details so as not to disrupt the scene. But upon that safeword, it’s extremely helpful to both parties is the protagonist knows why the safeword was used (it may not be obvious) so that the scene doesn’t get disrupted again.

[de****]

6 hours ago, 4RCH said:

I agree, however there will always be things that will be missed or overlooked in prior discussions and these may not be apparent until they crop up mid scene/relationship or whatever. So there needs to be an element of learning "on the job" also.

Sorry, that was supposed to go to @eyemblacksheep, feel free to criticize me so I can learn. Lol.

[de****]

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

Criticism can be damaging to relationships.   It can make someone feel bad about themselves, it can impact their mental health.  

It's also important not to mistake help, advice, feedback as outright criticism - but also, to accept feedback for what it is. 

But if you are going to constantly criticise (or be criticised by) a partner, why are you with them? 

In kink - communication is important and that communication might not what we always want to hear.  This could be at any stage - in both the discussing of play or relationship - or any form of after play feedback (as part of aftercare) 

So if you're discussing a scene that happened - what went well, where could there be improvements etc may have stuff one partner or the other doesn't like - it might be "you didn't vary things enough", "you could have been harder/softer", "I'd have preferred to spend a little more time doing this, and less that", "your feet were too clean/dirty" - all fair feedback and whether the other person likes this or not, well, they should be willing to listen.  Whether they actually want to change things from there is still on them.

If you're criticising your partner for those - why are you even playing with them?

It might be criticism is a step above, "I've repeatedly asked you not to do this and you still do", "You said you would do ________ and haven't", "You completely ignored my safeword - if you didn't hear it, then you need to improve" - and all these are more dealbreakers than learning opportunities.   

Also - there is a massive difference between 'critical thinking' (the ability to analyse facts objectively and form a judgment.) and 'criticism' (the expression of disapproval of someone or something on the basis of perceived faults or mistakes.) you seem to confuse the two a lot here.

Actually, humor is the antidote to criticism.people who can laugh at themselves “steals” all the perceived negative power away from the critic. It also makes an awkward scene less awkward. If your sub farts when they are being punished, make fun of it……the sad part though is this website calls any and all forms of humor “trolling”. Again, feel free to criticize me on this so that I may learn.

[ey****]

6 minutes ago, devilsdreams said:

Humans tend to get emotional over being wrong or told what to do

There's a difference between being wrong, being told what to do, and being criticised.

7 minutes ago, devilsdreams said:

Example your parent punishes you as a child for stealing cookies from the cookie jar, in the moment you may not know stealing is wrong, it might hurt to be punished, but in reality it’s teaching you an incredibly important value

In this scenario there is a simple problem.   The child in this example did not know this was wrong, and granted a punishment might be required - but it's hardly fair for the parents to commit an act of child *** (striking the child) if they had no information that this was wrong, couldn't find this out elsewhere, couldn't establish that for themselves.    

[FETMOD-KF]

guys - I get where you're going with these examples - but no more talk of children, especially in the context of physical ***. Thank you.

[ey****]

3 minutes ago, devilsdreams said:

the sad part though is this website calls any and all forms of humor “trolling”

on the contrary - there's plenty of humour in people's posts on the website.

now, unfortunately I don't have full context since if you were making posts on here that were not approved I won't have seen them.   But, this particular forum it is important threads stay on topic so perhaps the humour wasn't appropriate for the discussion, I don't know.

Also, I guess, I'm not saying this happened here, but there's a big problem on the wider world with people being an asshole, getting called out for it and then being "Ha, I was joking - lighten up" and that is something which is bad faith.

[de****]

32 minutes ago, FETMOD-KF said:

guys - I get where you're going with these examples - but no more talk of children, especially in the context of physical ***. Thank you.

I understand your concern, but i did preface it as just an example (1 of 100 I could have used) I also didn’t illustrate the type of “punishment”……the purpose for this thread, my intention, is to illustrate the importance of critical thinking in all arenas, including kink.

[FETMOD-KF]

3 minutes ago, devilsdreams said:

I understand your concern, but i did preface it as just an example (1 of 100 I could have used) I also didn’t illustrate the type of “punishment”……the purpose for this thread, my intention, is to illustrate the importance of critical thinking in all arenas, including kink.

yes - and I accept that which is why the comment was permitted. But it's a line of discussion we can't allow. Thank you.

[de****]

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

In this scenario there is a simple problem.   The child in this example did not know this was wrong, and granted a punishment might be required - but it's hardly fair for the parents to commit an act of child *** (striking the child) if they had no information that this was wrong, couldn't find this out elsewhere, couldn't establish that for themselves.    

Yes, there is a difference, that’s why we both separated them with a comma and an ‘and’ to illustrate that separation. However, they all have similar conditions, they require extensive DETAILES to determine the intention, it’s the intention that will separate them beyond a reasonable doubt. In my scenerio, the child would have known it was wrong if the parents explained WHY it was wrong with details supporting it.

[de****]

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

on the contrary - there's plenty of humour in people's posts on the website.

now, unfortunately I don't have full context since if you were making posts on here that were not approved I won't have seen them.   But, this particular forum it is important threads stay on topic so perhaps the humour wasn't appropriate for the discussion, I don't know.

Also, I guess, I'm not saying this happened here, but there's a big problem on the wider world with people being an asshole, getting called out for it and then being "Ha, I was joking - lighten up" and that is something which is bad faith.

I can’t really comment to your comedy post because it’s “off topic”. But I will say that this website disagrees based on my empirical evidence of their definition of “trolling”.