Non-binary definition ..?

[Deleted Member]

Hello lovelies! Well, I've been on here for a few days, and I feel like I'm beginning to question whether using the label non-binary has been a bit of a mistake! This is the problem with labels; they can mean entirely different things to different people. So, tell me: when you think of non-binary, what to you see? Or what do you hope you'll see when opening a non-binary person's profile?

I do think the label (and definition) is one of the hardest to pin down. It doesn't mean trans. And while being trans is an epic and beautiful thing, it mustn't be assumed that all non-binary people are merely on a stopping point on their journey to become trans; even though some might be, many aren't. I think bi people might identify with this, certainly at times, when being bi is sometimes seen as being equivocal about being gay. Which it isn't, but occasionally can be. My former partner for instance. But it mustn't be assumed. I'm bi, so am attracted to men, or some men (if you're a silver fox or a bear, then I'm interested - but only if you're gay or bi. Straight men do not interest me at all); I'm also most definitely interested in women, and the more woman the better! Sigh.

It's personal, but for the record, this is me: someone with a male body, though physically and without effort quite androgynous. Even if presenting as male (and bizarrely even when I had a beard!) I would be mistaken for being female in the street, and more often than not on the phone. Apart from the irritation of growing body hair (which I get rid of assiduously though it feels like a frustrating game of whack-a-mole at times), I'm actually comfortable with my body, even the dreaded penis, which as Xander in Buffy said, cannot be defeated! Which took a long time because my male peers in school were simply horrible because I hit puberty late and not very well and assumed I was gay and bestowed every living cruelty on me as a result. Welcome to the 1980s. Anyway, I eventually realised I like the way I look. I'm just me. I realised everything about me is pretty fluid. And I like that. I can wear a suit and enjoy the part of playing a man, all be it a not very macho one! I also enjoyed being vague and wearing more female or at least gender neutral clothing. I wondered for a time, but I realised I had no interest in passing as a woman. I'm not trans, though I don't look bad in a dress, but it's me in a dress, and have worn skirts on stage as a (frankly) kick ass rock guitarist. Though I'm more 70s Bowie than Dave Navarro. As I said, androgyny is a nice place to be. Maybe 'flexible' could be a term? But with caveats I guess!

I actually think a useful thing would be a sliding scale for gender, to match with sexually. Would have to ask you trans lovelies what you think though? Would that make it trickier for you? Maybe just for non-binary? I think it might lead to fewer surprises, especially for all you straight chaps out there. And anything to help the algorithm understand, because it's clearly clueless!

So: your turn. Define non-binary for me, and let's see if we can collectively find a common definition?!

[Nikki_Hexy]

Personally i identify as "Gender-Fluid" maybe i have it wrong and i need to talk to an expert about it again but it feels right to me as i will have mood fluctuations in my body confidence and even the way i act down to how i walk, for example if i feel girly i will ***ly sway my hips a lot more when i walk, and have my head held high with confidence etc.
I think being "Non-binary" is more if a self interpretation that you are neither 100% masculine or 100% feminine, but somewhere in-between.

[Deleted Member]

I think you described non-binary very well in your question. It’s the fluidity of gender representation. You’re neither 100% masc or femme, 100% of the time. You’re fluid in your gender.

I do get the frustration of assumptions made around trans journeys. Not everyone who seeks gender fluidity wants to transition! V frustrating.

[ey****]

1 hour ago, jinxieotk697 said:

It doesn't mean trans.

to a degree; arguably it does in the sense that you do not identify with the gender you are assumed to be.

But

At the moment non-binary does mean a lot of things and there are actually a long list of other microterms which does get insanely pigeonholey.  But

I would assume someone who is non-binary to not identify as either male or female.  

How they present and what they are looking for may vary.  My wife is non-binary, they present femme.  Another person I know who is non-binary presents androgynous and someone else I know presents femme, masc, or androgynous depending just on how they wish to that day.

(though, of course, someone can be a cis female and still present masc, or cis male and still present androgynous...) 

But in short.

non-binary is someone who would answer the question "are you male or female?" with "no" 

[Se****]

Hi there hun
Well until recently I always thought I was straight as that’s what society told me I was, but somehow I never felt like I fit into any categories I have never felt particularly male or female I’m sort of a mix of both. As far as attraction to others is concerned it’s the person rather than what sex they are that draws me to them.
So if I’m not trans, straight ,bi, pan the only category that sort of fits is non binary 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Di****]

What a fabulous post👏💪!!
I detest labels. However somehow we need a starting point to describe how and who we are.
I rarely take much notice of any label that people use to attribute to themselves on kink sites because most of the time they don't truly know themselves.
I value the individual and will simply ask them questions about themselves.
I'm straight, and supposedly a "Dom".
Yes I'm dominant in the sex scene and always have been, but lead a very laid back nature loving retired life.
So when chatting to subs I expect everyone to be different, and they are, I never stop learning, and isn't that the beauty!? Learning and respecting us all as individuals.
Discussions about gender fluid, trans, non binary etc really ought to be played out on the bigger stage. In the end though, to my mind anyway, it all comes down to two things, respect and understand of the individual.
I hope the author of the above post recieves some clarity of understanding from the replies they get about non binary. I certainly understand more about them.....but other non binaries will be different... won't they?
Peace and Love 🌈🕊

[Ma****]

Hi, I’ll be honest I didn’t read your whole post because I’m in a bit of a rush- but this is what non binary means to me. Mind you, I need labels, I love them for myself, but they’re not right for everyone and that’s completely okay.

I perceive non binary as an umbrella word to hold this big selection of so many identities. I’m being non binary, I chose I micro label which for me is Agender, some it’s gender fluid, or gender non conforming etc, some don’t want a microlabel because Non Binary fits fully. Some people identify as non binary women or non binary men, and though I don’t fully understand it because I don’t identify with it, I’m proud of them for finding a label that fits them.

For me non binary means not the binary. No fitting into the binary norms. Or maybe for non binary, binary people like enby women or men it’s not fitting into the binary in a certain way. Many people have different reasons for feeling non binary so it’s understandable that the definition changes.
For me, I feel like more of a soul that unfortunately has a body. And it’s hard to fit into people with body’s definition of binary because I don’t know what mine is supposed to look like since I just feel like the soul, like an orb or energy. So being Agender (not any gender) really fits for me, and not everyone has that definition or reason for feeling right with Agender, but I’ve met some people who’ve felt this way.

It’s also different for everyone if someone chooses to identify as trans while being non binary. Maybe someone gender fluid wouldn’t be trans because they are binary genders, just on different days or different times and no one needs to change their identity if it doesn’t fit them. So for me I’m a trans masc, non binary person, but that’s because being a masc trans person also fits for me.

It’s also hard with the “roles” changing of what men and women look like - I’m all for making it so men don’t have to be macho and masculine to be a man and women don’t need to dress feminine and pretty to be a woman, though it does make questioning your gender a little harder sometimes. And that’s okay, that struggle isn’t something you’re dealing with alone.

I read through some of the other parts and I’m a little confused but I gotta go soon, I’ll say gender is a spectrum, it’s a sliding scale and you can mix and match. It’s about finding what fits with you if you even want to find labels. Sexuality and gender is hard because one change can change the other, I just say I’m Queer, anyone who dates me in queer in some way because I’m not male or female.. if someone identifies as straight or mostly strictly lesbian while talking to me I think I’d have some issues as I’m more triggered bu she/ her and stuff included so I would feel possibly that they see me as a woman??

[thatgenericwhiteboy]

Trans is not a gender it's a label for people who identify differently to the gender they was born as so to an extent it's saying you were one gender now you are the other gender. What non-binary means is a bit like gender fluid but not drifting. It just means you don't identify binarily (one or the other) so you don't identify as male or female that is it but a lot of non-binary people. I feel just use the term without truly understanding it. Just like pansexual, people use pansexual to mean they would be attracted to any gender but that's not the way it means. It means you are attracted to personality rather than gender or looks. tbh at the end of the day I don't agree with labels, ask questions and find out what people are individually like. Have conversations and discover peoples individuality instead of ***ting someone with a brush to try and understand and categorise them before having an proper conversation and getting to know the individual 🙌

[so****]

I understand the non-binary position, but the fact of the matter is that peoples brains make split second identifications when they see someone. If the person looks feminine with female secondary sex characteristics, their brain automatically says "woman" (think of Blaire White). Likewise when someone looks male, with masculine characteristics, the brain automatically assumes "man" (think of Buck Angel). It's just the way we're built. So if someone intentionally blurs things, purposefully confusing people, they can neither be surprised or offended when people legitimately do not know. Even as a biological hetero male, the fact that I have long hair & a clean shaven slightly feminine face, makes some people accidentally think I'm trans or a female lol.

[Deleted Member]

All very good and fair perspectives and I agree with them. It shows that at least some people are really considering what it actually is!

[Ma****]

25 minutes ago, sonofthunder777 said:

I understand the non-binary position, but the fact of the matter is that peoples brains make split second identifications when they see someone. If the person looks feminine with female secondary sex characteristics, their brain automatically says "woman" (think of Blaire White). Likewise when someone looks male, with masculine characteristics, the brain automatically assumes "man" (think of Buck Angel). It's just the way we're built. So if someone intentionally blurs things, purposefully confusing people, they can neither be surprised or offended when people legitimately do not know. Even as a biological hetero male, the fact that I have long hair & a clean shaven slightly feminine face, makes some people accidentally think I'm trans or a female lol.

Or people can switch how they see things, rewire your brain. Don’t assume, and if you do don’t say it, when I meet a stranger and don’t know their gender identity or know their pronouns, I use they/them or will ask their pronouns. It’s the most respectful thing to do, if people get my pronouns wrong, I’m not going to get angry with them or anything, as long as when they’re told, they correct it (though it still sucks to be misgendered even on accident and that’s a valid feeling).

Often times people, for example with They/ Them, or Neo pronouns will use a pronoun pin, or other merch to show our pronouns. When that happens and you notice someone look at it and still use the wrong pronouns because in their brain they see a Buck Angel or a Blaire White, then that’s on them. That’s them not doing the work to rewire, to respect someone’s pronouns and identity.

[bi****]

Problem with labels like that is that they mean something to the person declaring themselves, but mean nothing to everyone else. And that's the problem - the whole point of such labels is to communicate with others and this new fad of self-identity fails to do that. Its very self-centered.

[ar****]

It’s hard to pin down because it’s deliberately vague.

[Deleted Member]

18 hours ago, bittenkiss said:

Problem with labels like that is that they mean something to the person declaring themselves, but mean nothing to everyone else. And that's the problem - the whole point of such labels is to communicate with others and this new fad of self-identity fails to do that. Its very self-centered.

I think it's safe to say I take issue with everything you've said there. And are you saying that you've never used a single label to describe yourself and what you do, what you like and don't like? Such as Switch and Voyeur and Vanilla? Are these not labels you've chosen because you feel they partly describe you without lengthy explanation to others? Perhaps, even, your notion of Vanilla might be a little different to someone else's? Also, I think you'll find identity labels - even ones to describe gender - are not a recent fad; only that the newest generation have set the pace in really exploring the ways a person might expression and describe themselves. Perhaps the biggest issue is some people find the tiny bit of effort required to listen and consider too much, which I think is a shame. How else are we to learn and grow if we don't listen and simply dismiss and trivialise? I think that says more about the dismisser than the dismissee.

[Deleted Member]

3 hours ago, arousalismydrug said:

It’s hard to pin down because it’s deliberately vague.

If you're saying it's hard to pin down and ultimately that can cause issues of interpretation, leading to inconvenient misunderstandings, I agree. But if you're saying people using such labels are deliberately trying to mislead others or obscure what they are, then I would say you're wrong, and are entirely missing the point of labels. They're supposed to add clarity and brevity to definitions, not the opposite. That labels over-simplify and miss nuance is definitely part of the problem; I've personally tried to counter that by adding much more clarity to my bio. That I'm still getting straight men make advances and then behave like I'm misleading them I think says less about my efforts towards clarity and more about their unwillingness to invest the time to read said bio in the first place. No-one wants to have their time wasted, and I certainly don't want to waste others' time either; it's disrespectful.

[bi****]

5 hours ago, jinxieotk697 said:

And are you saying that you've never used a single label to describe yourself and what you do, what you like and don't like?

yup, and I try to use those to describe mytselfg to others. But what does 'non binary' tell anyone else? Nothing. it gives them nothing to go on that describes someone. this is where mnost of it breaks down, no longer are people using labels to describe themselves to help others, they use them for their own purpose only.

Eg. if you're a man who identifies as non-binary, say that. That conveys much more information to others that is relevant to them. This is not a site designed for listening, but for selling yourself. Its a "dating" site where ytou describe yourself to appeal or inform others. There is no listening, at least not in relation to creating a profile, its all about talking.

[ey****]

1 hour ago, bittenkiss said:

Eg. if you're a man who identifies as non-binary, say that.

if you're a man who identifies as non-binary then which is it - you can't be both a man AND non-binary. 

[CopperKnob]

Yesterday at 01:45 PM, sonofthunder777 said:

I understand the non-binary position, but the fact of the matter is that peoples brains make split second identifications when they see someone. If the person looks feminine with female secondary sex characteristics, their brain automatically says "woman" (think of Blaire White). Likewise when someone looks male, with masculine characteristics, the brain automatically assumes "man" (think of Buck Angel). It's just the way we're built. So if someone intentionally blurs things, purposefully confusing people, they can neither be surprised or offended when people legitimately do not know. Even as a biological hetero male, the fact that I have long hair & a clean shaven slightly feminine face, makes some people accidentally think I'm trans or a female lol.

Isn't this why it's respectful to ask how people identify, how they wish to be referred to?
I see email signatures at work now and under the 'how to pronounce my name' link there are the pronouns which that person wishes to be referred to.
As a society, we're evolving and it's the small things that can make a huge difference to people

[Deleted Member]

5 hours ago, bittenkiss said:

yup, and I try to use those to describe mytselfg to others. But what does 'non binary' tell anyone else? Nothing. it gives them nothing to go on that describes someone. this is where mnost of it breaks down, no longer are people using labels to describe themselves to help others, they use them for their own purpose only.

Eg. if you're a man who identifies as non-binary, say that. That conveys much more information to others that is relevant to them. This is not a site designed for listening, but for selling yourself. Its a "dating" site where ytou describe yourself to appeal or inform others. There is no listening, at least not in relation to creating a profile, its all about talking.

Yup, I see you've taken the time to read my bio then! "I'm a bi male who identifies as non-binary" pretty much covers it, wouldn't you say? Plus I think you'll find from some of the nuanced and well-considered responses to this post (and I'm reading every one) that actually "non-binary" does mean something.

[Deleted Member]

4 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

if you're a man who identifies as non-binary then which is it - you can't be both a man AND non-binary. 

Yes you're right, totally, but actually it's a matter of practicality on here. I'm basically gender fluid and flexible, and was just as frustrated by straight women who fit my profile of what I was looking for but thinking I wasn't theirs as straight men not reading my profile at all. I'm happy boying up and playing a beta male role and feeling it too with the right woman as well as presenting in a more feminine way. And in fact I do find who I'm with influences how I feel about myself, almost like they act as my centre of gravity. If that makes any kind of sense at all. I think this app does a reasonable job but there are limitations. If other non-binary folks want to criticise me for not being committed enough or true enough to my label I can take that on the chin, fair enough.

[Ba****]

Gender is a kinda sliding scale as is. Non-binary, for my own autistic definition, is someone that doesn't, normally, identify as male or female. Of course fluctuations can and will happen.
And.. non-binary is in the trans umbrella. That's what the white stripe in the middle of the flag is for. For our non-binary siblings. Because all that 'trans' means to not identify with the gender you were assigned with at birth. (In this context anyways.) :]

[jo****]

im trans but female to male and i know a few non binary people. And theres no rules to it its just how you feel. A lot of non binary people dont change how they look or dress at all, they just know what they are and thats it and they shouldn’t have to explain what their gender label means to anyone.

[po****]

im nonbinary and also trans. i have transitioned and intent to transition more but i dont ever feel like i am fully a binary gender and i like they/them more than other sets of pronouns. (just putting myself out as an example of nb people who are trans/do want to transition)

[Mi****]

I’m bi. I enjoy being female or male. Depends on what I feel like.

[Deleted Member]

I'm a nonbinary person who does not feel trans. To me (and other NB friends) being nonbinary means experiencing gender, but not man or woman. Nonbinary has no specific look, feeling, or way to be.
If you are questioning then try every label out for a turn and see if it works for you. I've had other queer friends go from trans > genderqueer or vice versa. The queer experience is a complicated one and I wish you luck in self discovery.