"No Limits": Fact or Fiction (A Counterpoint)

[Deleted Member]

I'm going to now after reading all your wonderful posts in my own way simplify my view on the discussions of the last couple of days, please tell me if you think I am wrong.

 Being a decent human being places limits on our behaviour, the way we interact with each other, base protocols not only in kink but in all ways. We each have our own natural limits that I shall call character, how we choose to treat others etc. In life we all have limits placed upon us which we all know as the rule of law, you must not steal you must pay for these trainers etc so in all ways we have restrictions placed upon us be they by our peers(law) or by ourselves (character). So really there is no such thing as no limits as limits are always there in one form or another

 

However in this scene we generally need a set of base rules and protocols we should all follow especially when we are new, and I have noticed how many times the word "newbie" has been used.  The danger as i see it is a "newbie" may enter this world, see a post like this and think to themselves "wow, no limits that sounds fun" which obviously is quite dangerous and ***y irresponsible. I am a newbie if you like and I have made mistakes and I'm sure I will make more BUT I endeavour to become a man whom one day can have a relationship with no spoken limits. Does that mean I seek a relationship where anything goes, where I can do what I want when I want? In a way yes because my partner would trust me totally and I in turn would always place true care and affection at the top of my needs. That's the man I am, the problem is as Cade said at the very beginning of this thread those with "malicious intent" and by that i understand it to mean the ***rs, those who have no thought not only for the physical damage they may be causing but much more so the emotional. Those types are the ones who even with limits or safewords would go beyond what is permitted so in a scenario where it was no limits then they would become even more of a danger than they already are. However to get to a place where no limits is a part of your relationship it would take years, complete trust and complete faith in the dom from the sub. Most of us, even the most committed of sadists know the difference between right and wrong and that sadist from knowing his partner so well would always know without pre determined limits when "enough is enough, that's it for today" That for me is pure, complete trust and a place where  one day I hope to find myself. There is no stronger validation of a doms morals and character than a submissive who will play with no limits, who trusts that much and I think it's one of the highest honours afforded a dom. I do hope that makes sense 😊

[Cade]

1 hour ago, Donnykinkster said:

There is no stronger validation of a doms morals and character than a submissive who will play with no limits, who trusts that much and I think it's one of the highest honours afforded a dom.

THIS. This is part of what is being washed out of the community, as more individuals join and try to en*** "vanilla society" rules. The BDSM community is not vanilla society! There are obvious differences I'm sure we all don't need explained, but in that list, the vocabulary of this community is often all its own (as with any subculture).

Speaking as a person that experienced the lifestyle before the internet become common to every home and watching it evolve into this technological era, I can say the number of quality people that live this as an authentic and literal lifestyle (rather than just casual play) is dwindled tremendously. I can say with all honesty, the individuals that inspired me and I learned from make me look like novice, at best! To meet dominants with such morals and character (and the powerhouse submissives they keep) as you explained is wholeheartedly humbling. Before I met my LeatherDaddy and His slave, I thought my desires were purely a pipe dream. I mean, who could desire to serve a sadistic owner? I enjoy creating experiences my partner will not enjoy, for crying out loud!

BUT THIS IS THE COMMUNITY FOR THAT EXACTLY LIFESTYLE. We share our experiences to broaden awareness in the hope of becoming accepted; certainly, I can omit that my relationship is no limits for the sake of others comfort, but then I'm creating a great offense to my modality, this community, and all those amazing individuals that came before me to pave the way for all of us. I would be lying.

My dynamic is free from limits. Reread that before continuing: my dynamic, which is based on BDSM practices, is free from limits. Does that mean I can *** my slave? Yes, but *** isn't BDSM and it would undermine the dynamic I worked so diligent to create. Does this mean it's a limit? Certainly not, as if I can meet my scene considerations as described in a previous post I could create most abusive acts WITHOUT the actual ***.

I think the point I'm trying to make is there really is only one limit to life: what we can and cannot do. Thus why I don't consider such protocol as limits, as it has the ability to turn what most would consider as something impossible (can't do), into a possibility (can do). It has the exact opposite point as limits, which merely rein*** what we can't do.

I didn't realize this topic would get so philosophical, haha. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Cade

[cautiousswitch]

6 hours ago, Donnykinkster said:

 Being a decent human being places limits on our behaviour, the way we interact with each other, base protocols not only in kink but in all ways. We each have our own natural limits that I shall call character, how we choose to treat others etc. In life we all have limits placed upon us which we all know as the rule of law, you must not steal you must pay for these trainers etc so in all ways we have restrictions placed upon us be they by our peers(law) or by ourselves (character). So really there is no such thing as no limits as limits are always there in one form or another

 

That sums up what I was trying to say better than I could.

I have a pro domme friend who recently wrote an article "Tell us what you want".  It is aimed towards new clients who make the do-whatever-you-want-to-me requests.  Other than the contact scheduling the session and their initial interview time they are still complete strangers and need a set of rules to limit what happens.  The "no limits" relationship should only be done between people who know each others' character well enough to rely on natural limits.  This won't prevent the dominant from getting carried away or doing something out of character any more than having a set list of limits will *** the dominant to adhere to them once the sub is ***, but without that level of familiarity the "no limits" dynamic should not be tried.

[Phoenyx]

17 hours ago, Cade said:

Does that mean I can *** my slave? Yes, but *** isn't BDSM and it would undermine the dynamic I worked so diligent to create. Does this mean it's a limit?

What you just described is definitely a limit.  So is physical endurance, or medical issues.  I'm sure that you take those into account, as well.  The fact doesn't change, just because you don't want to call something by its name.  That is really what this is about...isn't it.

I have read some of your other posts.  You came bursting in here, with a bad attitude, expecting everyone to bow-down in ***.  Guess what---not happening.  You're not the only "cruel, scary sadist" around here.  I've been doing this since you were in Grade School.  You know what's not BDSM?  Being insulting and divisive---that's not BDSM.  Demeaning newbies, because they ask questions that you feel are beneath you---that's not BDSM.  Attempting to incite arguments, because folks don't use the terms that you prefer---that's not BDSM.

Before you attempt to vehemently deny this (I can already see the angry response building within you) I suggest that you ask the others, how they feel about your posts.  Sure, like you, I miss the old days.  But, if you wish to change things, then, you need to lead by example.  Brow-beating and hissy-fits aren't got to bring-about what you want.  Such an approach can only lead to exile.

[Cade]

1 hour ago, phoenyx said:

What you just described is definitely a limit.  So is physical endurance, or medical issues.  I'm sure that you take those into account, as well.  The fact doesn't change, just because you don't want to call something by its name.  That is really what this is about...isn't it.

I have read some of your other posts.  You came bursting in here, with a bad attitude, expecting everyone to bow-down in ***.  Guess what---not happening.  You're not the only "cruel, scary sadist" around here.  I've been doing this since you were in Grade School.  You know what's not BDSM?  Being insulting and divisive---that's not BDSM.  Demeaning newbies, because they ask questions that you feel are beneath you---that's not BDSM.  Attempting to incite arguments, because folks don't use the terms that you prefer---that's not BDSM.

Before you attempt to vehemently deny this (I can already see the angry response building within you) I suggest that you ask the others, how they feel about your posts.  Sure, like you, I miss the old days.  But, if you wish to change things, then, you need to lead by example.  Brow-beating and hissy-fits aren't got to bring-about what you want.  Such an approach can only lead to exile.

Wowza. I believe you may have missed the point of either of these discussions. Thank you for your input.

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, phoenyx said:

What you just described is definitely a limit.  So is physical endurance, or medical issues.  I'm sure that you take those into account, as well.  The fact doesn't change, just because you don't want to call something by its name.  That is really what this is about...isn't it.

I have read some of your other posts.  You came bursting in here, with a bad attitude, expecting everyone to bow-down in ***.  Guess what---not happening.  You're not the only "cruel, scary sadist" around here.  I've been doing this since you were in Grade School.  You know what's not BDSM?  Being insulting and divisive---that's not BDSM.  Demeaning newbies, because they ask questions that you feel are beneath you---that's not BDSM.  Attempting to incite arguments, because folks don't use the terms that you prefer---that's not BDSM.

Before you attempt to vehemently deny this (I can already see the angry response building within you) I suggest that you ask the others, how they feel about your posts.  Sure, like you, I miss the old days.  But, if you wish to change things, then, you need to lead by example.  Brow-beating and hissy-fits aren't got to bring-about what you want.  Such an approach can only lead to exile.

Good morning Phoenix

I say the next few lines as I always do to someone I don't know, with respect.

I'm a great believer in justice and what's right and wrong so I feel a need to respond.

 

I have been emotionally involved in the scene for 10 years but only practically for 18 months so I reckon that makes me a newbie. I enjoy debate and listening to others perspectives whether they be 30 years or 1 month in the scene as it helps me learn and in turn also builds connections. People i can go to for advice etc if I need to. This thread in particular the last couple of days had caught my attention as it's something I have thought of (No limits) but I didn't actually realise it was a real thing with a name etc. Over the last 18 months I've questioned, even purposely rattled cages and occasionally said a couple of daft things in my quest for knowledge and friendship. Not once has anyone belittled me or tried to embarrass me for my ignorance. I really do think that says everything about the "real" people I have interacted with.and that includes a "scary sadist" such as Cade. I think when he used the words "scary sadist" it was very tongue in cheek and said with a smile. Ive met scarier Dommes thats for sure and have seen nothing scary from this man. What I have seen is it's not those who are fully blown sadists etc who are the problem in this world but more so those who think that are more than they actually are. I had a fall out with a dom a couple of days ago and one of the things he said to me was "what do you know, I've been a dom 8 years and have had many subs" my response " but those 8 years don't matter at all if you don't evolve And become a better man". My point? It a response to.your comment about you have been in this scene since Cade was in grade school. Of course experience is a fantastic thing but with respect it does not make you a better kinkster and that's another lesson I've learned.

At no point have I been or felt insulted, belittled in any way and as I say enjoy debate and differing views,as I've enjoyed reading yours in the past and feel this personal attack on one who has shown me patience and a willingness to share is unjustified and a little over the top. 

[BeardedSi]

Oh..... I feel someone is trying to flex their kinks their muscles.... they obviously have no intention to have a discussion and feel that they can try to belittle your opinion because obviously they are right and everyone else is wrong..... phoenyx.... do me a favour.... get a hobby.... if you aren't going to bring anything constructive to the table, get up and walk away. Acting the way you have only makes you look like a fool. I have had a lot of conversations with Cade covering a wide array of topics and me and Cade haven't agreed on all of them but we don't resort to name calling and childishness as you have. We have discussed our views and our reasons for them, like adults do.

You've been in the scene for a long time.... that doesn't give you any more right to act like a dick. The only thing you have done is give anyone that reads your comment the understanding that you are narrow minded bordering on abusive. By all means have a different opinion but bring constructive discussion rather than childish name calling.

[Phoenyx]

Well, if I crossed over the line, I apologize for that.  I stepped-in, because I had received personal messages from folks, who had felt slighted in the ways that I described.  It seems ironic, that I am now being accused of the very same things.

I knew that I was taking a great personal risk with that post.  However, I felt that I needed to stand up for those who had been good to me.  I hope this doesn't mean that our Scene is dividing into factions.  If so, we need to call a truce, and nip this problem in the bud.

Perhaps, it's a sign of the times.  2020 has not been a good year.  Everyone is on-edge.  We all need to step back and take a deep breath, before we lose this beautiful thing that we have.

[Cade]

@phoenyx I took no offense to your post as it merely seemed you may have misunderstood my point. Easy to do in this textual format mode of conversation, and only more so when discussing matter both of importance and we have passion for. As mentioned, much of my writing is tongue-in-cheek and thought provoking; although I am confident in my knowledge I've gained through experience, I know I do still have much to learn - not just in this lifestyle, but of life, in general. I'm excited for it, and did intend my gratitude sincere: thank you for your input.

[Phoenyx]

Cade, I'm glad that we can be friends.  Despite what was said, I really do respect you.   Ironically, all of this seemed to highlight the keynote of this discussion.  We have just witnessed, in real time, that certain boundaries do exist, and what can happen when those boundaries are violated.  In my case, I let the emotions of others cloud my judgement.  Too often, limits become the casualties of passion, excitement, and the heat of the moment.  Dealing with such gaffs can become a true test of character.  That's not to say, that we shouldn't continually try to extend our boundaries.  Maybe, that is the true essence of "No Limits"---no limit to how far we can extend our limits.

[Cade]

5 hours ago, phoenyx said:

Ironically, all of this seemed to highlight the keynote of this discussion.  We have just witnessed, in real time, that certain boundaries do exist, and what can happen when those boundaries are violated.

I would agree, although I believe it more shows one of the ways limits can be used improperly, with detrimental effects. If you consider it, what we witnessed was an intellectual discourse in which several people were offering their opinions - some complimentary, some contrary - and the supporting reasons for those opinions. This was open to everyone to decide if they will read the thread, commenting if they so choose (consent consideration - no one is being ***d to participate). At some point in the discussion, someone's limit was mentioned (unknown to anyone save this individual), and they were triggered, to the point of feeling as if that limit had been violated. This individual messaged you, distraught, and you naturally felt the need to protect them, which meant bringing their grievance to me to try to en*** that boundary upon me (which I certainly didn't agree to).

This is only conversation, and no limits were crossed in it's occurrence! Haha. We are discussing complex concepts, which while controversial, have in no way been used to single any individual out and *** anything upon them. The individual that came to you may have felt uncomfortable, but I know I meant no ill-will towards anyone; their beliefs may have been challenged, but surely, this shouldn't be seen as a *** - rather welcomed as a chance to learn or strengthen the resolve in our own beliefs. Yes, these can be scary conversations - we won't evolve by trying to stop them. Instead, it stunts us all.

[Cade]

6 hours ago, phoenyx said:

That's not to say, that we shouldn't continually try to extend our boundaries.  Maybe, that is the true essence of "No Limits"---no limit to how far we can extend our limits.

Excuse the second post, but I wanted to also comment on this portion. Perhaps, this is a little piece of the magic in this lifestyle, you worded that so perfectly. When we say "no limits" in BDSM, of course that doesn't mean that there are no physical limits, no legal consideration, etc. What it does mean is within BDSM considerations, that we are free to explore that passionate world. It's vast and amazing beyond imagination - arduous to reach and with steep prerequisites, so very worth even a glimpse. Yet, so many rebuke those that try, even in ignorance. This seems almost a crime.

Just rambling, though.

[Th****]

@Cade I will not bother with quotes here there would be far too many but you have debated your side of this discussion in a most excellent way. You have my respect for what it is worth.

 

Now for the confession:- 

I stole your topic for a discussion group of 30 people I facilitate at weekends. I know totally sympathise with the shaming side of things as I was arguing your side of things because the other 29 were baying for *** at the start.

It was as has been shown here ,and answered skilfully by yourself that it would be just about every terrible thing from ***, to manipulation, to bullying, to the submissive suddenly becoming someone who did not know her own mind. 

I took your main point that "Why would anyone in a healthy dynamic whether top, Dom, or Master want to do anything that harmed there playmate.

I used my girl as an example as to all intensive purposes our relationship could be classed as no limits. This is because my limits kick in before hers. Neither of of us have many but it means that by time I get near hers I have stopped due to my own preference.

The discussion ended with about 10 coming over to the no limits side of things , as the group are made up of experienced people with few newbies.

It was a really challenging topic to attempt and gave me a whole new sympathy for how hard arguing that perspective is. 

 

Thank you again for a very enjoyable well thought out piece.

 

 

[Deleted Member]

10 hours ago, phoenyx said:

  I stepped-in, because I had received personal messages from folks, who had felt slighted in the ways that I described.  

Then they should take steps to educate themselves, learn and try to understand others. Not go running to another like children telling tales, it's pathetic, we are supposed to be adults and adults that move in a supposedly "non judgmental" world yet repeatedly I have see intolerance and judgment. We have enough to contend with dealing with vanilla folk who mostly think we are all predators and sexual threats without ripping chunks out of each other. The community has been mentioned a couple of times, it seems some do not understand what that actually means

[Vandalslut]

5 hours ago, Donnykinkster said:

Not go running to another like children telling tales, it's pathetic,

It was not too long ago that you stepped in and listened to a tale, of a woman you respected, who had been ***d horribly.  You shared that tale with us and we all backed you, as a community.  But suddenly, now there's a problem with someone telling a friend that they might feel bad or concerned about something? It's 'telling tales like children'?  It's 'pathetic'? We 'shouldn't' do it? If someone feels slighted it's automatically 'their' fault and they 'should' get educated?  That sounds intolerant and judgemental and if anyone had said any of this to you about your poor friend, you would have been furious.  I am so very sorry to hear you talk in this intolerant and judgemental fashion. And I've yet to see anywhere in the rules here that friends may not talk to each other about whatever may be troubling them.

And as for this discussion - there's far too much grey area and there is, as yet, no worthy or generally acceptable definitions of what constitutes ' BDSM with no limits' and what constitutes ***.  The alleged Dom who ***d your friend so awfully no doubt would have said he was 'practising BDSM with no limits'.  Yet the victim, you and the rest of us agreed - it was ***.  

[Deleted Member]

3 minutes ago, Vandalslut said:

It was not too long ago that you stepped in and listened to a tale, of a woman you respected, who had been ***d horribly.  You shared that tale with us and we all backed you, as a community.  

A completely different scenario where a submissive was being directly ***d by message.

I agree totally that friends should be able to talk to each other, share notes to try and understand themselves and this world yet this situation is not even close to being the same as that. I am intolerant where I see intolerance and that's what I saw here. Maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong but I look to those with experience for guidance yet all I saw here was judgment so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. 

[Deleted Member]

19 minutes ago, Vandalslut said:

  The alleged Dom who ***d your friend so awfully no doubt would have said he was 'practising BDSM with no limits'.  Yet the victim, you and the rest of us agreed - it was ***.  

Even Bdsm with no limits has to be consensual and something that would take years to build up to. No I reject this argument @Vandalslut as the situations are not even similar but as always I reject it with respect to you and value your advice and point.

[Cade]

@Thebian THANK YOU. It's people like you and all the amazing individuals that have added their input on this topic that makes it worthwhile, that we can discuss these ideas free from judgement means learning is continuing, and that's how we honor those who taught us. You honor me, good Sir, and I am humbled to be able to carry on the ideas and beliefs of those that have inspired me. Maybe the greatest gift of any community is its ability to inspire each individual how to be their best, even when different from the norm, because truly, we are ALL different from the norm.

In this, we find unity in diversity.