How do you respond to criticism?

[TheBookCollector]

28 minutes ago, inconceivable said:

Yes, absolutely - context matters. And I've read/heard of similar situations where people think they can step in to judge scenes in clubs. I'm not a club goer. I was more interested in your reaction. Did you mean you'd tell someone to jog on in that kind of situation?

Yes i would if it was a total stranger, as ive probably had that discussion with peers in the past so their opinion is of little value.
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Outside of clubs and events how would anyone except me and my partner know anything about the dynamic we have?
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How can they have an opionion on something they have no knowledge of.

[earthyangel]

I will listen and reflect on the word, and only after I will think of them, and respond calmly.

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, FatefulDestiny said:

Constructive criticism given with no malice or ill intent or underlying “tone” is absolutely necessary for everyone at some point.

Constructive criticism (imo) involves the giver taking time to think about what they’re saying and ensure it is being said “from a place of love”. It then requires an open and honest conversation along the lines of:

I think… “x” because… y (the because is very important - there needs to be valid reasons).

Have you noticed this at all?

Do you want to discuss it further?/how does this make you feel?

I have some thoughts/ideas that could help if you’d like to hear them?

Importantly the conversation ought to be left open so that it can be revisited should the receiver not wish to discuss things immediately.

Criticism given well (can lead) leads to self inspection and offers opportunities for self improvement or the ability to cement one’s initial sense of self and confirm that change is not needed because “you” are happy with yourself.

Criticism given without context is unhelpful at best, but generally rude and unnecessary. It happens frequently online due to the safety and anonymity of a screen/keyboard - I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it more than once.

However, criticism in and of itself is a very negative word with negative associations/connotations and perhaps we’d more readily receive information if the term feedback (for example) was used.

I’ll be very honest and say I don’t deal with criticism well. Not that I get defensive per se (although I absolutely can), more that it leads me to wonder what’s wrong with me? why am I not good enough? Why didn’t I do/say x, y, z or act like a, b, c? I am exceptionally self critical, which is not a good thing, and hearing criticism from outside sources sometimes appears to validate my own critical thoughts.

 

Feedback as a term might well offset the negative connotations of "criticism", however constructive. Choice of words seems really relevant, and I pick my words more carefully and slowly in person than online - probably not to anyone's advantage.
So much of online feedback is about perceived tone, isn't it? How it's meant and how it's received are two different things?

[Chloebear]

It depends how it’s directed in general, if it feels like a judgement. If so it would probably invite a reactive response. I think because with kink you are often revealing a *** side of your personality, something that is deeper and for some more private, criticism of it can feel intensely personal too. Also, if you label someone a bad sub, where do they go with that? It’s such an all consuming judgement! If you could specifically say - when you do this, you might try this instead - it’s more helpful. That said, you will often still get defensive reactions because it’s personal…
It’s usually best to reserve feedback unless it’s requested or if you are concerned about safety imo.

[DarkArts1066]

Personally, I believe it’s critically important to self-reflect throughout life in general, and that includes my kink/fetish life too.

Many people unfortunately don’t understand how to provide constructive criticism, and are too emotive when delivering it, which can create feelings of anger in the recipient, which in turn prevents that criticism from being absorbed… and thus learned from.

Reflection takes time.
In society today, people seem more and more to need immediate answers.
We HAVE to respond to messages, emails and suchlike immediately, otherwise we are ignoring them, or being rude.

That is usually not the case.
Comments need to be considered, and an intelligently thought out, reasoned answer should be provided - once the ‘reflectee’ has had time to consider their actions - or comments.

[TheBookCollector]

6 minutes ago, Chloebear said:

It depends how it’s directed in general, if it feels like a judgement. If so it would probably invite a reactive response. I think because with kink you are often revealing a *** side of your personality, something that is deeper and for some more private, criticism of it can feel intensely personal too. Also, if you label someone a bad sub, where do they go with that? It’s such an all consuming judgement! If you could specifically say - when you do this, you might try this instead - it’s more helpful. That said, you will often still get defensive reactions because it’s personal…
It’s usually best to reserve feedback unless it’s requested or if you are concerned about safety imo.

Good points.
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I would ask who defines what a bad/good sub is? The argument seems to be similar to the "true" dom/sub that is often put out there by the uninitiated.
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There are partners that are mismatched, but that does not define a good/bad sub, just an ill match.
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This one reason is why you dont jump into a D/s or M/s relationship, you approach a relationship like a vanilla relationship, and build foundations, you know actually get to know the person you are considering as a potential partner.

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, earthyangel said:

I will listen and reflect on the word, and only after I will think of them, and respond calmly.

that's very admirable!

[Shilo66]

How I respond to criticism is dependant on whether or not I value that person's opinion. If I don't value their opinion then, if I'm honest, their criticism will have little to no affect on me, so I'll hold my ground and will argue my point.

If it's someone that I either like, or respect or see as generally fair, then I'm more likely to take onboard what they've said and reflect upon it. Obviously, it is also down to what they say, how they say it, where and when, etc, etc, etc.

For example - and don't get a big head about this - from what I've seen of your posts on these forums, thus far, you come across as someone who is prepared to stand up against an injustice and will call out any BS whether that person be male and crucially, female. I say crucially female, because a lot of women here, will just enable a woman being toxic no matter how much of a d*** that they know and can see she is being. You are one of the few who won't. 

It is because of your ability to be so fair that, if I  and many others are in a debate and you criticised us over something, we'd actually take stock, listen and reflect. All this because of your record - thus far - of being fair and objective, which is something that I myself strive to be... I think they call it 'measured'.  

The problem with being fair and objective, and standing up against an injustice, or calling out BS when someone is being a D***, is that you will receive a lot of criticism for it from the enablers, be they male or female. Not pleasant but hey... please don't change. This site needs more people like YOU!  

And just for clarity for everyone else reading this, I do not know the OP personally, and I'm outside the criteria in various ways that she is looking for in a partner, so there is zero chance of me trying to worm my way into her knickers.  

Edited January 11 by Shilo66

[Chloebear]

1 hour ago, TheBookCollector said:

Good points.
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I would ask who defines what a bad/good sub is? The argument seems to be similar to the "true" dom/sub that is often put out there by the uninitiated.
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There are partners that are mismatched, but that does not define a good/bad sub, just an ill match.
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This one reason is why you dont jump into a D/s or M/s relationship, you approach a relationship like a vanilla relationship, and build foundations, you know actually get to know the person you are considering as a potential partner.

Yes absolutely. The ‘bad sub’ was a call back to the OP’s question and what to do if you’re called a bad sub. This is something that would invariably make most subs riled up! Very similar to the real Dom comments. They’re empty criticism, designed to make people feel bad rather than support their growth.

[Ki****]

I will always listen. There is a reason someone is saying what he is. Then I evaluate the situation. Is it legitimate constructive criticism, an opinion,  or spewing hate? Those all raise or lower the level of significance. 
 

Words like “good” or “bad” are subjective. If that is the extent of the criticism, without any further explanation, the person giving it is not interested in improvement. So my take would be to evaluate the intention of the criticism and my relationship to the person before allowing my feelings to be hurt. But if your feelings are hurt, there is probably some truth in what was said. Even an idiot can offer us insight into ourselves and an opportunity to be a better person. 

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, Chloebear said:

Yes absolutely. The ‘bad sub’ was a call back to the OP’s question and what to do if you’re called a bad sub. This is something that would invariably make most subs riled up! Very similar to the real Dom comments. They’re empty criticism, designed to make people feel bad rather than support their growth.

Would it depend on the sub's level of confidence how they responded? When I was first told that as a newbie, I immediately doubted myself and questioned my suitability for D/s. These days I just roll my eyes!

[Deleted Member]

Sorry I'm not answering all comments at all or in order - hard to follow on the app. I appreciate all the thoughtful responses

[Chloebear]

9 minutes ago, inconceivable said:

Would it depend on the sub's level of confidence how they responded? When I was first told that as a newbie, I immediately doubted myself and questioned my suitability for D/s. These days I just roll my eyes!

Yes I think you’re right. I would be scornful now, but I think a bit of me would still question what made them say that. I suppose it’s a reminder to give feedback kindly:)

[ey****]

8 hours ago, TheBookCollector said:

Example, a couple are playing in a club the sub spaces and the dom releases her from equipment, guides her to a seat gives her a water bottle and walks off to get himself a drink and chat with friends elsewhere for 30 minutes. Does a stranger have a right to step in and critisize?

if you're a stranger you don't know their aftercare routine.  you can approach either party in this situation to make sure they're ok

8 hours ago, TheBookCollector said:

Example 2 : a couple are playing, using kinbaku and suspension, a person stands on the edge and is discussing how he is doing it wrong, or grabs the dom/top after and starts to berate the dom for unsafe practices.

the person standing criticising is interfering with the scene and they should be criticised for that.   if they have any genuine concerns it should be taken to a dungeon monitor who can assess

8 hours ago, TheBookCollector said:

Example 3, a couple are playing a hard core cnc scene, the couple have cleared it with the club and explained what will happen, the sub is screaming 'no' and 'stop' but not using thier safeword. Is the dom/top continues, is the dom a bad dom.

this one has it's complexities 

the right thing to do for the people wishing to do the scene is of course to clear it with the club and the club have to be happy with this which includes that hearing 'no' being ignored can be distressing and they have to be ok with that and also others around in the dungeon have to also be made aware.

the club can set their own limitations on the scene.  providing it's within this, it's game.    

[Re****]

I feel the best way to handle it is to ask about what expectations the other party had and what could have been done to help match or meet them!
I do wish feedback and communication was better utilized when it comes to D/S relationships or connections.

[TheBookCollector]

14 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

this one has it's complexities 

the right thing to do for the people wishing to do the scene is of course to clear it with the club and the club have to be happy with this which includes that hearing 'no' being ignored can be distressing and they have to be ok with that and also others around in the dungeon have to also be made aware.

the club can set their own limitations on the scene.  providing it's within this, it's game.    

That is exactly what i would do ahead of the evening and abide by any limitations placed on the scene by the club. Although i wouldnt expect the club to inform 50+ couples just the on duty DM staff so they where aware.
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We both know that you have people who are self appointed guardians of the scene and go out of thier way to critique and tell you your doing things wrong or whisper behind your back because you didnt do things the way they percieve they should be done. Eg not providing after care after a scene.

[Fa****]

7 hours ago, DarkArts1066 said:

Personally, I believe it’s critically important to self-reflect throughout life in general, and that includes my kink/fetish life too.

Many people unfortunately don’t understand how to provide constructive criticism, and are too emotive when delivering it, which can create feelings of anger in the recipient, which in turn prevents that criticism from being absorbed… and thus learned from.

Reflection takes time.
In society today, people seem more and more to need immediate answers.
We HAVE to respond to messages, emails and suchlike immediately, otherwise we are ignoring them, or being rude.

That is usually not the case.
Comments need to be considered, and an intelligently thought out, reasoned answer should be provided - once the ‘reflectee’ has had time to consider their actions - or comments.

I’d also argue that depending upon its delivery, or actually for that matter the “relationship” between the criticiser and criticisee (made up word of the day), the person receiving said criticism may also be emotive and unable therefore to absorb what is being said without it feeling like a personal attack.

I’m not convinced a “need for immediate answers” is completely correct but there are definitely societal norms and expectations as to how long a response from someone ought to take. Immediacy is nice, at times, but so also are long, thought out, appropriate responses. I guess it is up to the persons involved to discuss what does and doesn’t work for them. Personally, I need to know if a reply may take some time (if a message/email etc has been read) and feel ignored and insignificant to the person I’m speaking with if this is not discussed. The joys of being an attention wh*re 😬.

I do feel that many of us are sometimes guilty of veering to close to one extreme or another (immediate rash responses or drawn out wait times while thoughts are processed) - neither is necessarily good or bad, right or wrong however a more middle ground may provide a greater ability for proper communication.

Just my thoughts and I could be wrong in many people’s eyes. I simply know what works for me. 

[Deleted Member]

Someones talking shit about you? It's time to step into the ring and settle the disagreement.

Lol jk only people beneath you talk shit about you.

Unless it is an authentic attempt to get you to better yourself don't pay it any attention.

[ey****]

I guess though

and this again comes down to it being a public forum

We've often had people who are very - I'm struggling to get replies/dates/meets/etc and sometimes often with a pop or whine

and folk will go and say the types of things they could be doing better (aka 'doing wrong') and that is ultimately criticism, from effectively strangers.   It is then up to the person to decide if that's fair, or not, of if they want to do anything about it, or not.  (But then, certainly the folk who get salty about this still don't get what they want)

Or some posts or stories some folk have been horrified about unsafe practices or lack of consent or so on - and that is also criticism, from strangers. And the same applies.

But to then be complex.  In a lot of cases there are people who have a point, if only based on the writing in front of them if nothing else.   But there are folk who will disagree cos either they're dicks, or have their own bad practices they want to push - or so on : so sometimes it is a case of looking beyond the comments.

Of course, then, there's frequent stuff that people keep seeing to the point of frustration : if it's yet-another no-one-will-date-me from someone who has put no effort in and ignored all of the other posts of similar problems where advice has been given - that sometimes responses can be a bit short 

[TheBookCollector]

57 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I guess though

and this again comes down to it being a public forum

We've often had people who are very - I'm struggling to get replies/dates/meets/etc and sometimes often with a pop or whine

and folk will go and say the types of things they could be doing better (aka 'doing wrong') and that is ultimately criticism, from effectively strangers.   It is then up to the person to decide if that's fair, or not, of if they want to do anything about it, or not.  (But then, certainly the folk who get salty about this still don't get what they want)

Or some posts or stories some folk have been horrified about unsafe practices or lack of consent or so on - and that is also criticism, from strangers. And the same applies.

But to then be complex.  In a lot of cases there are people who have a point, if only based on the writing in front of them if nothing else.   But there are folk who will disagree cos either they're dicks, or have their own bad practices they want to push - or so on : so sometimes it is a case of looking beyond the comments.

Of course, then, there's frequent stuff that people keep seeing to the point of frustration : if it's yet-another no-one-will-date-me from someone who has put no effort in and ignored all of the other posts of similar problems where advice has been given - that sometimes responses can be a bit short 

In the case of postings on here that is usually someone asking for an opinion to be given, or advice which is completely different to being given unsolicited opinion from a total stranger, who has walked up to you in the street and given thier opinion. A good example are those that ask your religion and you tell them youre an athiest and they start try to convert you to thier particular dogma(this has happened to me on a 5hr flight, with no escape).

[sardonicus87]

I don't get told this by people that know me. Then again, basically nobody knows me. But I get told by strangers all the time that I "am doing BDSM wrong" or must be an ***r or something just from them reading my profile. I'm like "how can I be doing it wrong when I'm not doing it at all because nobody's ever looking for the same thing as me?" or "yeah, because I'm not a dom, says so right in my profile, dummy", then I just block them.
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There's not really a right way. There's wrong ways, and I know my way isn't one of the wrong ones. It's just an unpopular one and goes against a lot of presumptive dogma that people have, especially newbies with 0 experience who only ever read and fantasized about it and spend all day on Reddit threads acting like they're some expert.
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Anyway, I basically don't respond, just block. No engagement. Too old now for that crap. I don't care why they think so, because I know they're wrong, because in the past they've always been wrong and been presumptive. I don't get defensive because there's no point, they'll never change their mind. Occasionally on a bad day if I get one, I'll throw insults before the block, just to let off some steam and frustration. But I wouldn't say the words are hard to hear, especially because the rare occasion I get them, they're always wrong.

[sardonicus87]

Lots of people go out of their way to try to make everyone else do things exactly their way. Only their way is the right way. This kind of behavior has gotten so much worse the last 5 years, and not just in BDSM, I mean in everything. And they aren't worth listening to.

[Chloebear]

6 hours ago, sardonicus87 said:

Lots of people go out of their way to try to make everyone else do things exactly their way. Only their way is the right way. This kind of behavior has gotten so much worse the last 5 years, and not just in BDSM, I mean in everything. And they aren't worth listening to.

Arguably, people will always raise concerns with pure sadist, because the Dominant role and the dynamic provides a framework to manage that desire and ensure balance, avoidance of harm and control. Without it it can be like a car without breaks… although this will depend on the person and their practice as individuals. It doesn’t allow the reassurance on reading that those mitigations exist. This is quite a good example of where people will likely offer feedback and it could cause reactivity because it’s personal. However, as with most things, it seems to me that understanding and communication would diminish any hostility in that interaction.

[sardonicus87]

1 hour ago, Chloebear said:

Arguably, people will always raise concerns with pure sadist, because the Dominant role and the dynamic provides a framework to manage that desire and ensure balance, avoidance of harm and control. Without it it can be like a car without breaks… although this will depend on the person and their practice as individuals. It doesn’t allow the reassurance on reading that those mitigations exist. This is quite a good example of where people will likely offer feedback and it could cause reactivity because it’s personal. However, as with most things, it seems to me that understanding and communication would diminish any hostility in that interaction.

So, are you implying people are only capable of self-control and not going too far only if they're also a Dom and in a power exchange dynamic, that that's the only way to have mitigation? I mean, safe words exist for all BDSM, they're not specific to just D/s dynamics...

[Chloebear]

8 minutes ago, sardonicus87 said:

So, are you implying people are only capable of self-control and not going too far only if they're also a Dom and in a power exchange dynamic, that that's the only way to have mitigation? I mean, safe words exist for all BDSM, they're not specific to just D/s dynamics...

Your profile states no protocol, so what I said was: there’s no way to know without knowing the individual and their practice, and that can invite feedback. Which could invite reactivity. Which is somewhat rein***d by your response, because what you infer and what I imply are not the same. Point in hand: it wasn’t a critique, but an observation relating purely to this thread (where it should be kept).