Earning Submission

[Bl****]

Much of the rhetoric around submission and a guideline often used for submissives amongst the BDSM communities I've joined use some form of "submission should be earned" or "submission is a gift"

Let's examine this ideology together.

How should submission be earned if it is to be earned?

Is it possible for submission to be a gift if it, in fact, must be earned?

Is it possible for submission to be seen as a gift, if it can be taken away and comes with restrictions based on the gift giver?

[Sw****]

Based on the language you’ve used in this question, “rhetoric” “ideology”, your question gives the vibes that you disagree with these guidelines? That submission is not earned or a gift?

[Su****]

Well this will be an exciting thread to follow! ☺️

[CopperKnob]

Submission is not a gift. It's not an object to wrap up and handover. A gift implies that once it's gifted, there's no more work to be done. It implies its transactional.
If we're labelling submission as some sort of gift, we're suggesting that it's special, that dominance is just, expected/assumed.
When in fact, just as much goes into dominance in any healthy D/s relationship.
When we place submission on a pedestal and not dominance, we may as well say the the D's especially Sadists can face their own vulnerabilities and demons all whilst bringing us our blankets chocolate, ice cream, whatever we need for aftercare because we're entitled to because of our special 'gift' but the D's can be damned.

[yi****]

I just ignore those people. Most of the people that have some guideline about what submission / dominance should or shouldn’t be are way to pompous and annoying to deal with.

[Bl****]

48 minutes ago, SweetNSourPatchBrat said:

Based on the language you’ve used in this question, “rhetoric” “ideology”, your question gives the vibes that you disagree with these guidelines? That submission is not earned or a gift?

Would you take offense and refuse discussion if I did? A great segway into the question of vibes, with no standard vetting procedures, much of relationship building is via vibes in BDSM and Non BDSM contexts. While dangerous in both, vibes in BDSM take on significant roles even in lifestyle discussions like this. Based on the language in your question, I get the vibe that you will conflate my language and use it to be hostile/argumentative while dismissing the value of the question. Should I go along with the vibe?

[TravellingDom71]

Respect is earned, but if you respect someone are you not gifting them your admiration for what they stand for or how they conduct themselves. If you agree that this is how respect works then is submission not the same?

[Sh****]

Are we talking about the sub in the bedroom, or in real life?
If it's about the bedroom only, then no. One likes to be in control, and one enjoys being controlled. The boundaries are (hopefully) defined and everyone plays their roles.
If we are talking about the real life or full time dynamic then definitely. You can't dominate someone who doesn't believe in you, respect you, and is convinced you better know what is best for them. You can't just say okay, from this moment you are my sub and they do (unlike the bedroom play).
For sure it can be taken back if the sub loses their belief in their Dom.

[ed****]

I'll play the Devil's Advocate here and say that submission is not a gift. Nor is domination a gift. Both are a state of mind and a natural trait in the individuals.
.
A submissive has a need to follow and be guided. A dominant has a need to lead and guide. Both the submissive and the dominant receive something from the dynamic that makes them feel more complete. It's a symbiotic relationship.
.
Rather than being a "gift", maybe it's better to view it as a trade. A bit of an I'll scratch your back thing?

[ja****]

1 hour ago, SweetNSourPatchBrat said:

Based on the language you’ve used in this question, “rhetoric” “ideology”, your question gives the vibes that you disagree with these guidelines? That submission is not earned or a gift?

You have to admit though that when certain Subs of the female variety talk about earning or being gifted it's almost as if they are still trying to maintain the superior position in the dynamic. When certain subs, of the female persuasion, spent too much time explaining the nature of submission there's that old Chestnut of me thinks Lady Doth protest too much

[fl****]

I suppose it is earnt or given in the same way a gift is earnt or given. If you demand it, it won't be the same, but if you make it clear what you want, people might freely give it

[tw****]

I think I can be either or. It depends on the people involved. For example, I chose not to have any type of power over relationship. Especially in a sex context. However, In the rare situation, where I have history, a deep emotional connection and complete trust in my partner and feel completely safe in our relationship and in the right mood would I consider maybe what some define as a submissive role.
Currently not even close to an option. It would trigger me way too much.

[CopperKnob]

24 minutes ago, flinchflinch said:

I suppose it is earnt or given in the same way a gift is earnt or given. If you demand it, it won't be the same, but if you make it clear what you want, people might freely give it

I receive gifts on my birthday. I didn't earn them, I literally turned 1yr older and absolutely nothing I have control of.

[Ro****]

Honestly for me I think of it more as the initial interactions when the relationship or play relationship starts. Subs want to be submissive but f course but the trust also has to be earned. Lots of people want a blind obedience at the very first second of the first interaction. No one in their right mind would do that unless they are specifically into doing that

[Bl****]

57 minutes ago, TravellingDom71 said:

Respect is earned, but if you respect someone are you not gifting them your admiration for what they stand for or how they conduct themselves. If you agree that this is how respect works then is submission not the same?

I don't agree. Respect and admiration do not go hand in hand. Submission is not the same as respect and doesn't come about as a by-product of respect, so I would disagree that they work the same way.

[Bl****]

1 hour ago, CopperKnob said:

Submission is not a gift. It's not an object to wrap up and handover. A gift implies that once it's gifted, there's no more work to be done. It implies its transactional.
If we're labelling submission as some sort of gift, we're suggesting that it's special, that dominance is just, expected/assumed.
When in fact, just as much goes into dominance in any healthy D/s relationship.
When we place submission on a pedestal and not dominance, we may as well say the the D's especially Sadists can face their own vulnerabilities and demons all whilst bringing us our blankets chocolate, ice cream, whatever we need for aftercare because we're entitled to because of our special 'gift' but the D's can be damned.

Thanks for your perspective. It was enjoyable to read.

[Bl****]

1 hour ago, flinchflinch said:

I suppose it is earnt or given in the same way a gift is earnt or given. If you demand it, it won't be the same, but if you make it clear what you want, people might freely give it

It is less common to earn gifts, and once we are gifted something earned, we more often refer to it as a reward.

[Bl****]

1 hour ago, ShadowMan247 said:

Are we talking about the sub in the bedroom, or in real life?
If it's about the bedroom only, then no. One likes to be in control, and one enjoys being controlled. The boundaries are (hopefully) defined and everyone plays their roles.
If we are talking about the real life or full time dynamic then definitely. You can't dominate someone who doesn't believe in you, respect you, and is convinced you better know what is best for them. You can't just say okay, from this moment you are my sub and they do (unlike the bedroom play).
For sure it can be taken back if the sub loses their belief in their Dom.

Belief is an interesting component, Belief in the dominant partner is not required in the bedroom, which is an implication that I take from this. I would disagree. You can find many anecdotes of subs who have a partner who isn't dominant, but they believe they can be, they desire it and that desire leads them to seek ways the partner can start on Dom training if you will but that desire requires Belief.

[Bl****]

1 hour ago, edmonton11 said:

I'll play the Devil's Advocate here and say that submission is not a gift. Nor is domination a gift. Both are a state of mind and a natural trait in the individuals.
.
A submissive has a need to follow and be guided. A dominant has a need to lead and guide. Both the submissive and the dominant receive something from the dynamic that makes them feel more complete. It's a symbiotic relationship.
.
Rather than being a "gift", maybe it's better to view it as a trade. A bit of an I'll scratch your back thing?

A wonderful thought, definitely more to explore here. For instance, does a pro dom have a need to be paid or to use a natural instict or trait to build a career path? Where do alpha subs fit into that concept? With dominance described as a natural trait, how do we account for the ratio of female to male pro doms?

[Bl****]

I love a devils advocate, though lol

[Sw****]

2 hours ago, BlackGrassland said:

Would you take offense and refuse discussion if I did? A great segway into the question of vibes, with no standard vetting procedures, much of relationship building is via vibes in BDSM and Non BDSM contexts. While dangerous in both, vibes in BDSM take on significant roles even in lifestyle discussions like this. Based on the language in your question, I get the vibe that you will conflate my language and use it to be hostile/argumentative while dismissing the value of the question. Should I go along with the vibe?

Your vibe is already hostile, I see no need to discuss 🤷‍♀️ Cheers

[Pr****]

Submission is a state of being it's not a gift to be earned. It is your destiny or your fate. It is important to take care of your health and well being of course and if "earning it" is part of that process that's great but ultimately you're either already submitting on some level or you are not.

It's like a sexual orientation but towards 1 person lol.

[Bl****]

34 minutes ago, SweetNSourPatchBrat said:

Your vibe is already hostile, I see no need to discuss 🤷‍♀️ Cheers

Cheers 🍻 👏🏿 ✌️

[Da****]

Submission may be a constant state of mind, however, submission to a Dom/Master/Mistress is earned by said Dom/Master/Mistress through trust. If trust isn't earned, neither should submission be given. Thus, it is also a gift in exchange for that trust. If that trust is taken away, the exchange ends. Thus, if one gift is broken, the other gift is nullified.

[Sl****]

This can go on 1 of 2 Ways: Dangerous Toxic Power Imbalance, that a Dom/me is Ultimate Power & Control, that Sub should do EVERYTHING to please them.
.
The other would be to show that they're willing to make a Serious Commitment, JUST AS they expect the Dom/Me to do the same. That both are up to meeting the Needs of the Other.