Another gendered kick in the teeth Question.....

[Je****]

Okay so to put it in it's plainest form, I had a disagreement with a member on this site. About Non binary and trans labels (hate that word).

 

A person asked what NB and T were, and if he slept with one of these people, would it mean he was gay...

 

 

The discussion brought on some varied answers, majority saying No as that person has transitioned they would be Female. (When discussing MTF in particular).

 

myself being Non Binary, gave a few examples on my own struggles and worries and so did some others of similar identities. 

 

Someone informed the lad, when he asked, what makes someone a woman, that it was how they dress and act. I disagreed and put across that it is not as black and white as that. What makes someone a specific gender is how they Live and Identify. 

 

Am I wrong in this? 

 

My argument is, someone who is Male for instance, may wear women's clothing for kink and fun, but that does not by any means make them a woman. They don't live as a woman, or identify as such, even if they act like one when dressed. 

I personally look and act like a "woman" due to society where I live. I however do not identify as a woman. This is the vital curve in my input to the conversation. 

Sexuality was also brought into it, and I don't think the two should be paired and questioned, Identity and sexuality are also very different. 

If someone has transitioned from MTF and date Men, they are straight. And so on... Some people are Pan and Demi etc etc too...

I have a male mindset. My NB struggle when prompted I feel bisexual. 

Why? Because I have a male mind. I fancy Men. This makes me feel I am gay... But for me it feels complicated as I like my men dressed as women. I also am attracted to women along with the femme men. Which makes me feel straight. It is very confusing. I had to "label" myself as Pan due to confusing myself a million times over. 

 

But I guess my questions are....

 

What makes someone a specific Gender.? 

Is it how they dress and act?

Or is it how they Live their lives and ultimately identify.?

Especially if they are trans people..

 

I somehow upset someone for correcting them that a Woman is how someone identifies, not the dressing up. Am I wrong? 

I have lost sleep over this and if I am incorrect for this, please do help me understand. 

Thanks

[Deleted Member]

It's how a person identifies themselves.
Increasingly though, labels get in the way and are more trouble than they are worth sometimes. Recognise and respect people as individuals who you may or may not be attracted to.
Non of us get it right all the time, we're human after all, so it needs tolerance from all sides.

[hi****]

I honestly completely agree with you on this. Would love to talk more about it!

[Deleted Member]

You are very wrong. What makes a woman is that she is born with ovaries, a womb, that special chromosome. Anything after that is a choice. I have no issue with people who transition. I applaud it, if it is what makes you. God knows there is enough crap going on to ruin happiness. It is all the ridiculous labels bandied around like flags of honour.

[CopperKnob]

I think that it's a relatively new and somewhat grey area. For me gender and sexuality are two very different things. With that said, I'm not clear as to whether there can be a 'right' or 'wrong' answer because it's subjective based upon each individuals view/how they interpret their own thoughts/feelings/identity.
I do feel though that with regards to gender identity I'm bumbling around in the dark and perhaps there are 'rights' and 'wrongs'm

[Je****]

1 minute ago, BigBear1234 said:

You are very wrong. What makes a woman is that she is born with ovaries, a womb, that special chromosome. Anything after that is a choice. I have no issue with people who transition. I applaud it, if it is what makes you. God knows there is enough crap going on to ruin happiness. It is all the ridiculous labels bandied around like flags of honour.

Exactly and someone has that choice. Be it choosing or transitioning to... they are still a woman. I wish we had a dislike button for a comment such as yours tbh. If you can't see that someone who transitions from male to female IS a woman and identifies as such, please don't bother commenting with such a closed mind. 9

[Je****]

1 minute ago, CopperKnob said:

I think that it's a relatively new and somewhat grey area. For me gender and sexuality are two very different things. With that said, I'm not clear as to whether there can be a 'right' or 'wrong' answer because it's subjective based upon each individuals view/how they interpret their own thoughts/feelings/identity.
I do feel though that with regards to gender identity I'm bumbling around in the dark and perhaps there are 'rights' and 'wrongs'm

The main question I had was "is someone a woman by dressing like one, or living and identifying as one?". 

Dressing/acting is very different to living and identifying and this site is a prime example of that. 

But you are right it is very grey, not just black and white, mostly with Non Binary identities. I am living it and it even confuses me on labels, but the conflict in my own head is other worldly.   

[Th****]

over the last 15 years or so there has been a big trend in putting labels on people so that other less kink minded people can be happy.

we are all different, and have our own life to lead, and struggles to cope with let alone being pigeonholed so that the less informed masses can be happy.

The many labels and pigeonholes out there are a minefield, we are who we are and choose to be, and dont need labels or to be pigeonholed just to fit into society.

please everyone be happy with you, you are all brilliant, exciting, and interesting, and dont need the labels

 

[Deleted Member]

By the sound of it you have struggled with labels and fitting specific labels which is exactly what i personally think is wrong with labels, it's ok to identify or belive whatever you believe it doesn't have to conform to any label. I think we should strive to be whatever we are comfortable with, as a society we are getting so wrapped up In trying to be as politically correct and inclusive which in theory is nice but we are literally all individuals with varied lived experiences we will never fit completely into any labels or societal expectations. Don't waste time or your life losing sleep over labels not everyone will be accepting or understanding but then it works like that in regards to religion, politics etc so those that mind, don't matter and those that matter usually don't mind. Just be you and try to not worry about where you think you should fit.
It's all relative and personal as you said it's not black and white. I for example agree it's not clothing and makeup that makes a woman, I'm not overly feminine, I wear what I like and find comfortable and I hate makeup but I'm still a woman and to me my anatomy is my defining features to being a woman, it's different for everyone and unless someone is stating they hate you for your belief then we probably shouldn't be trying to tell others what they think or feel is wrong or what 'label' they fit under and not be so concerned with how we as individuals live our life.

[Ba****]

This subject always ends up being emotive, people have different opinions on what constitutes gender. For some it's in the dna and can't be changed some think it's based on the bits you have and others the clothes you wear or how you feel in yourself. I'm not saying what's right or wrong or trying to push my own opinion but there is an issue these days being able to debate these subjects without it turning into an argument or someone getting offended. Think in some ways we as in the royal we have forgotten that people have different opinions and you can't *** your own opinions on others but as long as everyone repects each others right to an opinion we can differ but still respect each other as people regardless of what path we choose.

[Erebus]

11 minutes ago, Finally_Jen said:

Exactly and someone has that choice. Be it choosing or transitioning to... they are still a woman. I wish we had a dislike button for a comment such as yours tbh. If you can't see that someone who transitions from male to female IS a woman and identifies as such, please don't bother commenting with such a closed mind. 9

I don’t usually weigh in on these conversations I like to read them and take in other people’s views but to read your view on this BigBear1234 I have to agree with Jen on this your view was totally unhelpful and not at all worth reading, what you may or may not have realised at this point is the world has changed and people who have transitioned are women and they have the right to identify as such despite your views!

It just makes me sad that people with such closed views are on a website that should do more promote acceptance of what whom each and everyone is and identifies as!

[Cr****]

I think it's a pretty complicated situation and not quite as black and white as a label would imply. I know, I know, cis white male coming in with their opinion, but I consider myself an ally, I have trans friends and call them whatever they want me to and respect everyone in the same way, but I would consider any sexual relationship with an MTF trans person as a different thing to a sexual relationship with a cis female person.

[se****]

I don't know now. Back then I knew a handful of Trans, and learned about removing the apple in the throat from them, and other hints.😉😅 I learned from them it wasn't black and white. With me, they all did surgeries and most took hormone shots too. All of them, you can see it in their faces "they worked hard, and PROUD" to be a woman and men.

[Erebus]

4 minutes ago, CryptidKing said:

I think it's a pretty complicated situation and not quite as black and white as a label would imply. I know, I know, cis white male coming in with their opinion, but I consider myself an ally, I have trans friends and call them whatever they want me to and respect everyone in the same way, but I would consider any sexual relationship with an MTF trans person as a different thing to a sexual relationship with a cis female person.

I agree it is a complicated situation and I get there are those who wish to discuss this openly and put their points across, and like you I too have friends I met on this site who Identify in many different ways, but what I cannot understand is those who are so closed to discussion and those who like to be confrontational to try and derail what is a serious question. Like some others here I know I don't have all of the answers all the time but I’m willing to have an open mind and listen to all sides!

[Deleted Member]

Identity is first and foremost a philosophical problem. I personally don't like the phrase gender Identity because I subscribe to the hegelian notion that identity is: "self-equal in its absolute negativity, through which otherness and relation-to-other has vanished in its own self into pure equality-with-self". The issue with viewing gender as an identity from that perspective is that gender than loses it's place in a public language game. It loses it's definition. One might say, and I've heard philosophers of gender say that it is a purely private thing , in other words my understanding of what it means to be nonbinary is completely different from my nonbinary friend. That's the hegelian route, negation of otherness for pure equality with self. However if a label such as nonbinary only exists in private language, that is there is not one widely accepted metalinguistic definition, what's the point of nonbinary. Wittgenstein had some great writing on that

[Deleted Member]

Personally…. It’s very easy for me to get lost in all the labels … I always identified and acted cis…. But knew something about me was different. So I experimented with a man … and liked It. Still like women too… so I started identifying as a bisexual.

I do go in phases, where I prefer sex over the other. Does it make me gay if I like men? Yes. Does sue make me cis if I like women. Yes.

So back to my first sentence …. It’s easier and gratifying to just accept myself and others as they are and respect their desires and wishes, pronouns, etc and have fun.


…. For myself I just try to live … well me.

[Deleted Member]

15 minutes ago, CryptidKing said:

I think it's a pretty complicated situation and not quite as black and white as a label would imply. I know, I know, cis white male coming in with their opinion, but I consider myself an ally, I have trans friends and call them whatever they want me to and respect everyone in the same way, but I would consider any sexual relationship with an MTF trans person as a different thing to a sexual relationship with a cis female person.

Yes, it is different, but all relationships are, what's important is that people should be able to state that they don't want a relationship with a person without feeling bad because of their particular or perceived label. As you say, respect (and tolerance) are key.

[Erebus]

12 minutes ago, ATX78757 said:

Personally…. It’s very easy for me to get lost in all the labels … I always identified and acted cis…. But knew something about me was different. So I experimented with a man … and liked It. Still like women too… so I started identifying as a bisexual.

I do go in phases, where I prefer sex over the other. Does it make me gay if I like men? Yes. Does sue make me cis if I like women. Yes.

So back to my first sentence …. It’s easier and gratifying to just accept myself and others as they are and respect their desires and wishes, pronouns, etc and have fun.


…. For myself I just try to live … well me.

I think that's what we all try to do at the end of the day..... to try and life our own lives the best we can!

Edited October 12, 2022 by Erebus
missed words

[ey****]

there is stuff beyond all of our understandings.  unfortunately a lot of the research was destroyed (by the Germans... in the late 30s.... and other allies of the time) and a lot hasn't really properly resumed.

Chromosomes got mentioned but we actually can't *see* people's chromosomes and there may be more insight there.  There are also an awful lot of people who are intersex and don't know because they were operated on at birth : sometimes without their parents knowledge!

But still.

I am generally attracted to feminine presentation and sometimes androgyn : if I had sex with a trans woman, regardless of if she had transitioned or not, she is still a woman.

Non-Binary is a little more complex, but I have found I'm not really attracted to masc presentation - and so far all of the NB people I have been involved with to any degree have been AFAB and present usually between feminine and androgynous 

Generally; I consider myself straight - but if anyone thinks otherwise then that is their thing/issue rather than mine.  If someone felt my involvement with them meant I wasn't entirely straight, then I can still go with that.  But it's not for anyone else to really decide; not that it matters.

I think as a simple term.  if the person referred to had sex with a trans woman - would he be gay?  I don't know - is he otherwise attracted to cis men at all ?

[Je****]

Don't worry i won't let an educational discussion get derailed by narrow minded views. There doesn't need to be an argument. 

People should be accepting and open and supportive, especially on here. If someone says I am Female, and they have transitioned to identify as such, then that is what they are and that should be respected. This was another issue that came up yesterday. A troll laughed at this idea and said they weren't a woman and completely disrespected and mocked their right to live and identify how they wish to! Which was an even bigger issue to the "dressing/acting like women makes you a woman, Vs the identifying and living".

For me the clue was in the comment used, "act". Someone who lives and identifies as a woman does not Act. It is what they ARE. 

 

It's not even me losing sleep over "labels" either. More so the *** in having to voice my struggles to be told by someone that its simply dressing up, was one issue but minor in comparison to the troll mentioned who laughed and mocked those who do identify as such. I don't think it's to do with anatomy either. Some who transition have the full transition done to remove or add parts and live and have sex as the gender they're transitioning too. 

With Non Binary it is a little more complicated. 

The main issue was the transitioning comments that were hurtful yesterday. 
I am not by any means wishing to ever transition. This is why Non binary is a "label" upon me. Or showing therelackof. 

 

No two people are the same, no two people think and identify the same but who the F are we to tell them they aren't what they worked hard and proudly to be!

[Deleted Member]

9 minutes ago, Erebus said:

I think that's what we all try to do at the end of the day..... to try and life our own lives the best we can!

Thanks me too. After posting made me think …. My basic philosophy to the world is “YOU do you. Want to identify as a goat? Ok cool you do you. Want to be a radical left or right wing political soldier? Ok you do you. BUT… here is the rub in society today …. Don’t expect me to condone or deny, understand, agree with, endorse… and especially in today’s USA,.. PAY FOR your views or actions. I’m referring to the fact that here… there is always two sides… and if one doesn’t agree with the other then it’s let’s argue and stir shit up with the other. PS— love the hair!

[Je****]

2 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

there is stuff beyond all of our understandings.  unfortunately a lot of the research was destroyed (by the Germans... in the late 30s.... and other allies of the time) and a lot hasn't really properly resumed.

Chromosomes got mentioned but we actually can't *see* people's chromosomes and there may be more insight there.  There are also an awful lot of people who are intersex and don't know because they were operated on at birth : sometimes without their parents knowledge!

But still.

I am generally attracted to feminine presentation and sometimes androgyn : if I had sex with a trans woman, regardless of if she had transitioned or not, she is still a woman.

Non-Binary is a little more complex, but I have found I'm not really attracted to masc presentation - and so far all of the NB people I have been involved with to any degree have been AFAB and present usually between feminine and androgynous 

Generally; I consider myself straight - but if anyone thinks otherwise then that is their thing/issue rather than mine.  If someone felt my involvement with them meant I wasn't entirely straight, then I can still go with that.  But it's not for anyone else to really decide; not that it matters.

I think as a simple term.  if the person referred to had sex with a trans woman - would he be gay?  I don't know - is he otherwise attracted to cis men at all ?

To my knowledge the fella who asked about if it was "gay" was genuinely curious about it. He was not in any way derogatory or mocking. I shall assume for this discussion, as he didn't hint other wise, besides "trans woman" that he is into female presenting people. Some people are attracted to feminine trans people, myself included. 

But the main argument was on trans people more so than NB with the sexuality labels. 

I do hate labels. They make things easier sure, but sometimes they create harm and produce ignorance. 

I was once told i confuse people too much to be NB as i am very feminine. Yet if it was a male born person dressing as a femme, they would be the ideal example of being NB. It's not all how someone is dressed or presenting either. 

There are a lot of (for example) lesbian women who dress very very masculine. This doesn't mean they are or identify as a man. It's how they dress. If their dress style and life was identifying as Male then that's they're right to be just that and people shouldn't be cruel to dismiss them based off how they used to be. 

It is very complex and often gets heated, a lot is misunderstanding, a lot is ignorance too. 

Let people be what and who they want and the world would be a happier place. No matter what the person in question finds sexually attractive, it's no one elses business. 

 

But if i could mega heart your comment, i would!

[Erebus]

4 minutes ago, Finally_Jen said:

No two people are the same, no two people think and identify the same but who the F are we to tell them they aren't what they worked hard and proudly to be!

This is the main thing we all need to understand no two people are the same; we all have our own experiences that make us what we are! I know some people crave to have or be labelled but it's not what makes us who we are!

I can only translate this into terms I can relate to but when I first got into BDSM I was solely interested in Bondage and discipline then I also got into Dominance and submission and finally I realised I was also into Sadism and masochism, so we all change even when we think we know who and what we are we are all human and we can all change our minds!

[Erebus]

6 minutes ago, ATX78757 said:

Thanks me too. After posting made me think …. My basic philosophy to the world is “YOU do you. Want to identify as a goat? Ok cool you do you. Want to be a radical left or right wing political soldier? Ok you do you. BUT… here is the rub in society today …. Don’t expect me to condone or deny, understand, agree with, endorse… and especially in today’s USA,.. PAY FOR your views or actions. I’m referring to the fact that here… there is always two sides… and if one doesn’t agree with the other then it’s let’s argue and stir shit up with the other. PS— love the hair!

I hope you were referring to Jens hair and not mine! I have terrible hair

[se****]

I agree with you Jen, they didn't think "act" or even that word ever hopped in their thoughts. Like you said "What they are". Back then, if I told them about "act", I firmly 100% believe they would say "they are not one of us".