Another gendered kick in the teeth Question.....

[se****]

In serious relationships, all I know is love can change a person's view. Seen it with my eyes.

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, kage said:

In short one cannot have opinion unless they from others? my position is simply one of rationality and linguistics, if words are subjective and meaning vary from person to person then words becomes meaningless, this position is objectively true, the very question she raises makes this evident as the words can mean anything to anyone is it's impossible to have a discussion on the subject as it becomes the question on whose definition is right , I have always addressed people how they want to be addressed am a classical liberal in short people should live how they want to live.... But will always be a defender of objectivity and rationality

No of course you can. However, if you present your opinion as objective fact then either I want an experts' in meta linguistics or philosophy of language scientific article/philosophical articleswant your scientific or philosophical article published in a peer reviewed journal. To be honest I don't care about the discussion but I care quite a lot about philosophy of language and formal logic. They both have canons that are followed for a reason. Respect that when presenting something as fact

[Ta****]

It's worth noting some people are biologically intersex. This condition has been recognised for a long time, and different societies have had different ways to handle this. For example, in Shakespeare's time, such people were legally considered whatever gender was recorded in their baptism record (e.g. if in law a man's word carries greater weight, it's important for the law to know the gender of the witness). To use another example, the Jewish faith recognises 6 genders, and places everyone in one of their categories (e.g. eunuchs are the third gender, which I suppose most of our male house cats would fall into). That is a related but slightly different issue to trans.

I hope we would at least agree that it's appropriate to refer to people in the manner they prefer (like using a nickname or scene name rather than a real name), regardless of their biological gender or your own beliefs. You don't have to agree with their beliefs, it's just good manners to use their preferred term in conversation.

Back on the original topic about sexuality, research is actually finding that *everyone* is to some degree bisexual (women more so than men, but everyone is). The experiments essentially involve showing people porn, and using eyeball trackers to measure pupil dilation (a hard biological indicator of arousal). We might identify as some other sexuality (I do myself), but in hard reality everyone is (to some degree at least bisexual). So the question is actually something of a moot point. 

[SA****]

So many negative comments... how many of the people in this discussion posting their negative comments have actually been hurt by trans men or women? Does it actually hurt you to let people be, call themselves however they wish to be called and ask for a small favour - acceptance, to just be allowed to live how theyd like to live and be referred to how they want? I dont pretend to understand the subject myself, but what harm is in giving someone common courtesy?

[Deleted Member]

2 minutes ago, SAndM said:

So many negative comments... how many of the people in this discussion posting their negative comments have actually been hurt by trans men or women? Does it actually hurt you to let people be, call themselves however they wish to be called and ask for a small favour - acceptance, to just be allowed to live how theyd like to live and be referred to how they want? I dont pretend to understand the subject myself, but what harm is in giving someone common courtesy?

I personally could not care less about how anyone chooses to live their life, unless and until it impacts me or those around me.

Gender ideology has worked it's way into the school system in many countries so it fundamentally does affect many of us. All children in the UK for example are now being taught that they and their brothers, ***s and friends may have been born in the wrong body (Brunskell-Evans, 2019).   

This has gone from being something that affects a tiny minority of people, to fully mainstream, without any basis in fact. 

As I mentioned elsewhere, I had a friend who dated a trans woman without being informed about it. That's an *** of consent and not cool. It messed him up after he found out about it. Of course, that was just one individual...right? Well no, there are many in the trans community who fully support this notion that nobody has the right to be told about a potential sexual partners transition and former gender. Right now this is being debated in the UK since non-disclosure is considered *** under the current UK Sexual Offences act as there is not informed consent. Jail sentences have already been issued.  Trans activists argue that the right to "privacy" of a trans individual is of higher value than the right to informed consent of a non-trans person. Hopefully all of us in the kink community would agree that informed consent is a fundamental right? 

There are also major concerns around the idea of transition - a procedure which is very expensive and risky and results in sterilisation, yet it is often touted as a pancea for gender dysphoria, despite it not achieving the desired result. It is simply not possible to change your sex or gender.   And once you go down that road, at a certain point there is absolutely no way back.  I have no issue with an adult deciding to transition, but when I am asked to foot the bill (here in the UK transition is available on the NHS, so paid for by our taxes) then I definitely think it is something that should only be done when absolutely necessary. Today only minimal controls are in place to ensure an individual really has gender dysphoria and would actually benefit from transitioning.  

Worse, it is increasingly being pushed by trans groups that children as young as 11 be given access to hormone blocking medication that will fundamentally halt their physical development. These so-called "puberty blockers" are off-label *** prescribed without proper trials and approvals by the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) within the Tavistock and Portman NHS trusts in the UK.  Puberty is obviously a critical state in normal human development, and it cannot be "delayed" by hormone blockers it is prevented entirely, something which will stunt many key physiological, psychological and mental developments.  These hormone blockers were never designed for this purpose. 

These treatments are part of an ideology that denies basic biological facts and eschews psychological treatments in favour of medical intervention, and any who attempt to question that approach are automatically shouted down as bigots and terfs, preventing any kind of nuanced discussion.

For me trans activists and this extreme ideology do more harm to the cause of trans rights than good and it's one of the reasons these discussions often become heated.  

And yes, I do appreciate that these extreme views are not representative of all trans individuals - the majority of which I am sure do just want understanding and acceptance. But sadly these more extreme views are becoming widely accepted and that is IMHO very dangerous. 

[SA****]

Again, I wont pretend to understand the debate at all, and these seem to be valid, well researched points. I can understand this being an issue. However, Im talking more to those who have safely transitioned, or havent but would just prefer different pronouns. Safety is an issue, but If someone is at a point where they would change their outward appearence through surgery to reflect how they feel inside, why should they have to deal with bullying?

[se****]

MrCasey69, I am very sorry about your friend. I have experienced the opposite. The handful I knew, their partners all knew of their past. They believed in honesty, and told me if a person loves another, they will stay. I was told alot cried when they were told. And, I have heard the opposite of not telling, but never knew them. Don't forget, some might not say, because of *** of losing the partner.

[Deleted Member]

7 minutes ago, Finally_Jen said:

The purpose of this post was questioning identity on, whether someone who wishes to live as a woman is simply dressing and acting as, or living and identifying as. That is it. 

I do however appreciate your argument and scientific input as it is not shallow, offensive and narrow minded. This is how to debate. Not what other people seem to be doing. So thank you

Thanks - I do appreciate this is a very nuanced and emotive topic. It is not something to be taken lightly.

My previous response was specifically replying to a comment made by another post on your thread so you are correct, I did not addres your orignal post. 

In your original post you highlighted that someone had said "what makes someone a woman...is how they dress and act" to which you disagreed and said "it is not as black and white as that. What makes someone a specific gender is how they Live and Identify."

I think it's both simpler and more complex than that. 

Firstly - let's be clear - at least form the biological perspective if you are not born a woman then you're never going to be a woman. You can argue that we're talking about gender and not sex and that biological sex and gender are unrelated, but that's not borne out by the science. Gender is driven by the development of primary and secondary sexual characteristics which are inextricably linked to biological sex.  But let's get away from the science for a second because I don't think that's what you were asking.

If you are not a woman by birth, and you identify as one, and that makes you happy - then at a certain level - who is to argue with that?

So it really depends on who it is that you want to think you are a woman?  

You really cannot control other people and what they think or believe. You can't *** people to accept that you are a woman just because you choose to "identify" as a woman.  For most people, if you look like a man and / or act like a man then that's all they will ever see. Of course you will have close friends and family who will likely support you in identifying however you choose but that's only going to extend as far as your circle of influence.  So how you "live and identify" is irrelevant to most people.  

You will have much better chances of being broadly accepted as a woman if you dress and act as a woman.  Most people really don't look beyond surface appearances. That's just the way it is.  

And why would you care what other people think anyway? I appreciate we all want to be understood, but only those closest to us will ever really understand us anyway.  Since everyone else is ultimately beyond your control, it's best to just focus on being happy as you are and choosing good friends who will support you regardless. 

 

[Deleted Member]

2 minutes ago, kiseu said:

MrCasey69, I am very sorry about your friend. I have experienced the opposite. The handful I knew, their partners all knew of their past. They believed in honesty, and told me if a person loves another, they will stay. I was told alot cried when they were told. And, I have heard the opposite of not telling, but never knew them. Don't forget, some might not say, because of *** of losing the partner.

I do understand the *** of losing someone - but dishonesty / withholding is never the answer.  Any relationship built on a foundation that includes dishonesty is doomed to failure.

You need to find someone who will accept you for who you are, warts n all.  

[se****]

Also to add. I learned from them, not being afraid of losing a partner... real love can change a person's view, and most situations they will stick it with you.

[Deleted Member]

21 minutes ago, SAndM said:

Again, I wont pretend to understand the debate at all, and these seem to be valid, well researched points. I can understand this being an issue. However, Im talking more to those who have safely transitioned, or havent but would just prefer different pronouns. Safety is an issue, but If someone is at a point where they would change their outward appearence through surgery to reflect how they feel inside, why should they have to deal with bullying?

I wish we lived in a world where there was no bullying at all, for any reason!  But sadly that utopia remains out of reach!  

It seems to be very much in our nature to always pick on those who we perceive as different. 

[se****]

MrCasey69, I don't agree with the word "dishonesty". It really depends on case by case. I have seen it as "withholding" the information. Is it dishonesty if they love the person so much, it is *** of losing the partner?, and this was the only reason.

[Deleted Member]

2 minutes ago, kiseu said:

MrCasey69, I don't agree with the word "dishonesty". It really depends on case by case. I have seen it as "withholding" the information. Is it dishonesty if they love the person so much, it is *** of losing the partner?, and this was the only reason.

If you really love someone you would genuinely care about their needs and wants and not just your own selfish need to hold onto them.  That is really only self-love!   

[Ta****]

On the topic of declaring birth gender to a sexual partner (or people being concerned about it not being declared):

If knowing your partner's birth gender is important to you, there is a way to check. Feel the back of your partner's head. Biological males have a bony lump there, biological females do not. Currently none of the transitioning medical technology changes this fact (no one shaves bone off the skull...). This should be accurate (except for very rare intersex conditions, I suppose).

[se****]

TallDrake, I think alot of people will be feeling heads, because I just did.😂

[Ch****]

We've been labeled from the moment our gentic gender was announced at the hospital when we are born. 

 

Is that what makes us no it's not we can be what we like as long as its legal. Although this "gender labeling" is new it realy is not. Look back in history and not just at English cultures but at others. History is interesting.  

 

Also a genetic woman can be born with out a womb or ovaries or both but they still see themselves an class themselves as female.

 

Same way as males can be born with out testicles. 

 

I often am fount buying clothes for me in the male section of the shop. I just don't do girly clothes for comfort also I like pockets.

But 90% of the time I wear alternative clothing witch doesn't realy have a gender.

Iv seen both men an women wearing the same sort of alternative clothing. In fact I own some clothes that the male owner of the shop actually wears. An yes I say male because that's what he is. He was born a male.  I know from chats the man an myself  have had.

 

A question for you if a women is not born with women bits like ovaries or a womb or as them removed due to cancer as it as happend . I know these 1st hand are the no longer female. As I saw a post on this topic saying females are the 1s with femal parts.

 

Apart from medical treatment were we ne need to give our dna gender for example females who were born male need to get there prostate tested. 

 

Should it realy matter what we label ourselves at as long as we tell potential partners before we go on a date that what we are on the front is not what we were born with.

 

Me I don't care what your prounouns are or what you're gender is as long as your polite well manerd and don't get x rated with  me then we will get on.

 

 

[xP****]

You can personally identify as whatever you want, all the power to you however regardless of what *** you take and what surgeries you’ve had your still the sex you were at birth. You can’t change your dna/chromosomes, now that being said if your open to engaging in a relationship with someone who has switched/transitioned then no that doesn’t make you gay but from a dna standpoint technically speaking you did engage in a gay/lesbian sex. Ultimately I’d say it’s really up to one’s perspective on the matter and realistically speaking a blurred line.

[sh****]

I don't know if this is going to help anybody I'm addressing up since I was 7 years old I should have been born a woman but I wasn't and where I live I can't dress like a woman on the same like I really really want to 24/7 365 days a year because they still don't like gays lesbians and people like me here where I live but I do have my woman's clothes underneath me and when I have a women's clothes on me I go both ways and I prefer my men to be in women's clothing too and I go both ways but my men have to be dressed up like women too I prefer women more than anything I'm not straight and it doesn't matter what you put on or

[Koby]

What makes a women a women? Typically, it is boiled down to genitalia. For me, that's too simplistic - there are many many layers to us.

[Ba****]

What makes someone a specific gender is how they identify as.
Take me, for example.
I'm a trans man. No, I do not bind everyday due to asthma and not wanting to over do it to my body. Sucks because, as my family puts it, I have the most impressive man tits ever. Lol
When I get top surgery, I know I'll feel comfortable enough to wear dresses and skirts again. Because I wanna be pretty like a cis het man can wear a dress and be pretty. Doesn't make me less of a man.
It isn't how you dress/act. It's how you think, how you look at the world/yourself, and most importantly, how you identify.