Another gendered kick in the teeth Question.....

[TyP99]

A woman and a trans woman are the same thing. They are both women. The difference is the label used purely as a definition. A cisgender woman is a woman assigned female at birth and still living as one. A transgender woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth but now living as a woman.

It’s true that our DNA will never change however, when was the last time you checked someone’s dna before acknowledging their gender? Same can be said for chromosomes, although interestingly there are MANY people out there who’s chromosomes don’t exactly match the XX or XY expectation, it’s possible that you were born male and present as male with all outwardly sex characteristics, but your chromosomes may reflect a different answer. But again, when was the last time you checked someone’s chromosomes before accepting someone gender?

Sex and gender are two different things. One referees to medical and physiological anatomy (such as sex characteristics, dna, chromosomes etc). And one refers to an identity.

[TyP99]

Also a random addition to this. Recent scans and technology have show that a trans person’s brain (through mri imagery) works much more similarly to the gender they identify than to the sex they were assigned at birth

[Deleted Member]

6 minutes ago, TyP99 said:

A woman and a trans woman are the same thing. They are both women. The difference is the label used purely as a definition. A cisgender woman is a woman assigned female at birth and still living as one. A transgender woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth but now living as a woman.

It’s true that our DNA will never change however, when was the last time you checked someone’s dna before acknowledging their gender? Same can be said for chromosomes, although interestingly there are MANY people out there who’s chromosomes don’t exactly match the XX or XY expectation, it’s possible that you were born male and present as male with all outwardly sex characteristics, but your chromosomes may reflect a different answer. But again, when was the last time you checked someone’s chromosomes before accepting someone gender?

Sex and gender are two different things. One referees to medical and physiological anatomy (such as sex characteristics, dna, chromosomes etc). And one refers to an identity.

A man has a penis. A woman has a vagina and a womb. Those are facts. What you identify as is irrelevant. People don't care.

[TyP99]

4 minutes ago, phloverman said:

A man has a penis. A woman has a vagina and a womb. Those are facts. What you identify as is irrelevant. People don't care.

People do care. More than I believe u realise. Trans people care. The people who love them care. Etc etc.

But putting that statement aside. Using that logic, and interesex person who has all the sex characteristics and physical appearance of a woman, and identifies as woman, but has a penis also, that would then make her a man?

Biology is not so black and white or cut and dry. Biologists and geneticists acknowledged a lack of binary in this field. The binary acknowledgement of male and female at this point is (genetically speaking) outdated. Though there are points that lead someone to being closer to male or closer to female. The dna and chromosomes of a person are less binary than even the societal understanding of spectrum of gender

[Deleted Member]

3 minutes ago, TyP99 said:

People do care. More than I believe u realise. Trans people care. The people who love them care. Etc etc.

But putting that statement aside. Using that logic, and interesex person who has all the sex characteristics and physical appearance of a woman, and identifies as woman, but has a penis also, that would then make her a man?

Biology is not so black and white or cut and dry. Biologists and geneticists acknowledged a lack of binary in this field. The binary acknowledgement of male and female at this point is (genetically speaking) outdated. Though there are points that lead someone to being closer to male or closer to female. The dna and chromosomes of a person are less binary than even the societal understanding of spectrum of gender

I wish you no harm, but people don't care. There are bigger issues in the world. If you think you are a man that's your call. Good luck to you.

[Deleted Member]

3 minutes ago, phloverman said:

I wish you no harm, but people don't care. There are bigger issues in the world. If you think you are a man that's your call. Good luck to you.

How exactly can you assume that other people don't care?

[Je****]

28 minutes ago, TyP99 said:

As a trans man (who also identifies with non bindery) I believe that what makes someone the gender they are is not how they present or how others perceive them. But it how they identify and live. I identify as a male (with non binary) and use he/they pronouns. I live as a man and therefore I am one

THANK YOU. <3

[Deleted Member]

3 minutes ago, Beeswaxed said:

How exactly can you assume that other people don't care?

I'm sure Trans people care, but generally right now I think the majority of people care about the state of the economy and the planet we live on.

[Je****]

6 minutes ago, phloverman said:

I wish you no harm, but people don't care. There are bigger issues in the world. If you think you are a man that's your call. Good luck to you.

Don't you dare speak to him like that. That is so uncalled for. Get off my post if you don't care so much!

[Je****]

22 minutes ago, TyP99 said:

A woman and a trans woman are the same thing. They are both women. The difference is the label used purely as a definition. A cisgender woman is a woman assigned female at birth and still living as one. A transgender woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth but now living as a woman.

It’s true that our DNA will never change however, when was the last time you checked someone’s dna before acknowledging their gender? Same can be said for chromosomes, although interestingly there are MANY people out there who’s chromosomes don’t exactly match the XX or XY expectation, it’s possible that you were born male and present as male with all outwardly sex characteristics, but your chromosomes may reflect a different answer. But again, when was the last time you checked someone’s chromosomes before accepting someone gender?

Sex and gender are two different things. One referees to medical and physiological anatomy (such as sex characteristics, dna, chromosomes etc). And one refers to an identity.

You are wise beyond your years and make absolute sense. I am so glad that you have commented on this. Thank you again 6

[Deleted Member]

8 minutes ago, TyP99 said:

A woman and a trans woman are the same thing. They are both women. The difference is the label used purely as a definition. A cisgender woman is a woman assigned female at birth and still living as one. A transgender woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth but now living as a woman.

It’s true that our DNA will never change however, when was the last time you checked someone’s dna before acknowledging their gender? Same can be said for chromosomes, although interestingly there are MANY people out there who’s chromosomes don’t exactly match the XX or XY expectation, it’s possible that you were born male and present as male with all outwardly sex characteristics, but your chromosomes may reflect a different answer. But again, when was the last time you checked someone’s chromosomes before accepting someone gender?

Sex and gender are two different things. One referees to medical and physiological anatomy (such as sex characteristics, dna, chromosomes etc). And one refers to an identity.

Much as we might all wish it otherwise, a trans woman is not a woman. At least not biologically.  Dr. Stanley Biber, a pioneer of gender reassignment surgery admitted to the Superior Court of California that trans women who undergo such surgery wind up with a gender of neuter.  This is a cause of much upset I am sure to many trans individuals once they realise that even after extensive surgery and hormone treatment they can never fully achieve the gender reassignment they desire.
You can argue that we're confusing sex and gender but that's simply not the case. Gender is a result of normal sexual development.

Gender disparities result from abnormal sexual development, whether that be chromosonal or for other reasons.  And no there aren't "MANY" people out there who's chromosomes don't match the binary norm, it's less than 2% of the population the last time I checked.

And these differences do not constitute "variants" in normal human sexuality. They are mutations/malfunctions caused by incorrect copying of genes in the early stages of development.  Fully half of all miscarriages are caused by serious chromosome disorders just like these - so most such malfunctions are fatal to the fetus in utero.

Of those that are not fatal, many still result in serious developmental issues whether sexual or otherwise.  Edwards' syndrome (trisomy 18) causes serious developmental issues and only 50% of sufferers survive their first two weeks of life, and 12% make it past a  year.  Patau syndrome (trisomy 13) has only a slightly better prognosis. A bunch of other syndromes are not immediately life threatening but lead to intellectual disabilities, lack of motor skills, congenital heart defects, behavioural and cognitive problems.

Many of these disorders of sexual development result in infertility (e.g. XYY) so none of these can or should be considered "normal variants" as they automatically select themselves out from reproduction.

There are only a few that might be classed as relatively benign like XXY - Klinefelter syndrome which simply results in higher testosterone levels - and have few side effects which include greater risk of certain cancers, type 2 diabetes etc.

But to describe these as "normal sexual variants" and suggest they represent part of a "spectrum" of normal development is a complete misnomer and does a great disservice to sufferers and their families. The vast majority of pregnant women when made aware of such defects choose to abort, and rightly so. Life is hard enough without having to deal with potentially serious conditions like these.

But as with any disorder - like Down's Syndrome (I have family members who have Downs) - of course, this doesn't mean we should treat those with the condition with any less respect or dignity than we would anyone else.  

But it also doesn't mean we should try to redefine all of human sexuality on the basis of these unfortunate conditions.

 

[Deleted Member]

4 minutes ago, Finally_Jen said:

Don't you dare speak to him like that. That is so uncalled for. Get off my post if you don't care so much!

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.

[Je****]

5 minutes ago, phloverman said:

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.

There is having an opinion and being cruel to someone when it isnt needed. Your comment was uncalled for, not an opinion..

IE- " If you think you are a man that's your call."  This was very unkind. 

[CopperKnob]

17 minutes ago, MrCasey69 said:

Much as we might all wish it otherwise, a trans woman is not a woman. At least not biologically.  Dr. Stanley Biber, a pioneer of gender reassignment surgery admitted to the Superior Court of California that trans women who undergo such surgery wind up with a gender of neuter.  This is a cause of much upset I am sure to many trans individuals once they realise that even after extensive surgery and hormone treatment they can never fully achieve the gender reassignment they desire.
You can argue that we're confusing sex and gender but that's simply not the case. Gender is a result of normal sexual development.

Gender disparities result from abnormal sexual development, whether that be chromosonal or for other reasons.  And no there aren't "MANY" people out there who's chromosomes don't match the binary norm, it's less than 2% of the population the last time I checked.

And these differences do not constitute "variants" in normal human sexuality. They are mutations/malfunctions caused by incorrect copying of genes in the early stages of development.  Fully half of all miscarriages are caused by serious chromosome disorders just like these - so most such malfunctions are fatal to the fetus in utero.

Of those that are not fatal, many still result in serious developmental issues whether sexual or otherwise.  Edwards' syndrome (trisomy 18) causes serious developmental issues and only 50% of sufferers survive their first two weeks of life, and 12% make it past a  year.  Patau syndrome (trisomy 13) has only a slightly better prognosis. A bunch of other syndromes are not immediately life threatening but lead to intellectual disabilities, lack of motor skills, congenital heart defects, behavioural and cognitive problems.

Many of these disorders of sexual development result in infertility (e.g. XYY) so none of these can or should be considered "normal variants" as they automatically select themselves out from reproduction.

There are only a few that might be classed as relatively benign like XXY - Klinefelter syndrome which simply results in higher testosterone levels - and have few side effects which include greater risk of certain cancers, type 2 diabetes etc.

But to describe these as "normal sexual variants" and suggest they represent part of a "spectrum" of normal development is a complete misnomer and does a great disservice to sufferers and their families. The vast majority of pregnant women when made aware of such defects choose to abort, and rightly so. Life is hard enough without having to deal with potentially serious conditions like these.

But as with any disorder - like Down's Syndrome (I have family members who have Downs) - of course, this doesn't mean we should treat those with the condition with any less respect or dignity than we would anyone else.  

But it also doesn't mean we should try to redefine all of human sexuality on the basis of these unfortunate conditions.

 

I think though, that whilst you're clearly well versed in the subject, it's only the biological aspect that you've expressed. You haven't considered either the psychological or social aspects, at least not in your comment

[Deleted Member]

14 minutes ago, Finally_Jen said:

There is having an opinion and being cruel to someone when it isnt needed. Your comment was uncalled for, not an opinion..

IE- " If you think you are a man that's your call."  This was very unkind. 

It's my opinion. I've nothing against Trans people. Good luck to them. But a Trans Man will never be a Man nor will a Trans Woman be a Woman. That is not my opinion that is a fact. The term Non Binary is the biggest load of bullshit ever thought up. Its for people who want attention and want to stir up shit and cause division. You are a Woman. Grow up.

[Erebus]

42 minutes ago, phloverman said:

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.

I think what Jen and everyone else is saying here is very informative it’s a discussion on all aspects of what people are currently thinking from, philosophical, gender identity, sexuality, too even include DNA sequencing at chromosomal level, to try and get their points across but when it comes to the comments you make they are less factual and more attacking all of which brings nothing to the discussion which in my meagre opinion is very sad.

[Deleted Member]

5 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

I think though, that whilst you're clearly well versed in the subject, it's only the biological aspect that you've expressed. You haven't considered either the psychological or social aspects, at least not in your comment

I have done a lot of reading on the topic - from various different perspectives.  I am very sensitive to what must be a crushing reality for trans individuals since they never can achieve the full gender reassignment they desire and deserve. 

In practise, I have only ever met (that I'm aware of) three trans women over the last 30 years since I became aware they existed - it still remains a very tiny minority of the population.  And I think until people are confronted with trans individuals most are not going to be very understanding or sympathetic.  I absolutly believe that society needs to do better at accepting them.

But I also don't think that the way to do that is through twisting the biological facts which some of the more extreme trans activists have been doing.  And I have genuine concerns about the increasingly young age at which children are being encouraged to question their gender and even be treated for it despite not having the maturity to do so.   

So I think for me the more serious issue facing society right now is this wave of anti-science rhetoric. Whlie it was historically limited very much to the political extreme right wing with climate change denial and the anti-vax movement, the transgender issue has seen it spread to liberal / left wing groups as well and I do think it needs to be called out. 

[Deleted Member]

5 minutes ago, Erebus said:

I think what Jen and everyone else is saying here is very informative it’s a discussion on all aspects of what people are currently thinking from, philosophical, gender identity, sexuality, too even include DNA sequencing at chromosomal level, to try and get their points across but when it comes to the comments you make they are less factual and more attacking all of which brings nothing to the discussion which in my meagre opinion is very sad.

That is your opinion. Which I don't agree with.

[Je****]

34 minutes ago, phloverman said:

It's my opinion. I've nothing against Trans people. Good luck to them. But a Trans Man will never be a Man nor will a Trans Woman be a Woman. That is not my opinion that is a fact. The term Non Binary is the biggest load of bullshit ever thought up. Its for people who want attention and want to stir up shit and cause division. You are a Woman. Grow up.

You are a hateful person and what is wrong with society. NOT those who wish to identify and live a happy life as they choose. People like you and your hurtful comments are why people struggle so much. If you don't want educated thats fine but you and your asshole...sorry opinion can swiftly slide off elsewhere if all you want to do is attack the purpose of this post and its audience.

[Deleted Member]

3 minutes ago, Finally_Jen said:

You are a hateful person and what is wrong with society. NOT those who wish to identify and live a happy life as they choose. People like you and your hurtful comments are why people struggle so much. If you don't want educated thats fine but you and your asshole...sorry opinion can swiftly slide off elsewhere if all you want to do is attack the purpose of this post and its audience.

Nothing intelligent to say so resorts to insults. You'll be calling me a racist transphobic islamaphobe misogynist nazi next.

[Je****]

20 minutes ago, MrCasey69 said:

I have done a lot of reading on the topic - from various different perspectives.  I am very sensitive to what must be a crushing reality for trans individuals since they never can achieve the full gender reassignment they desire and deserve. 

In practise, I have only ever met (that I'm aware of) three trans women over the last 30 years since I became aware they existed - it still remains a very tiny minority of the population.  And I think until people are confronted with trans individuals most are not going to be very understanding or sympathetic.  I absolutly believe that society needs to do better at accepting them.

But I also don't think that the way to do that is through twisting the biological facts which some of the more extreme trans activists have been doing.  And I have genuine concerns about the increasingly young age at which children are being encouraged to question their gender and even be treated for it despite not having the maturity to do so.   

So I think for me the more serious issue facing society right now is this wave of anti-science rhetoric. Whlie it was historically limited very much to the political extreme right wing with climate change denial and the anti-vax movement, the transgender issue has seen it spread to liberal / left wing groups as well and I do think it needs to be called out. 

The purpose of this post was questioning identity on, whether someone who wishes to live as a woman is simply dressing and acting as, or living and identifying as. That is it. 

I do however appreciate your argument and scientific input as it is not shallow, offensive and narrow minded. This is how to debate. Not what other people seem to be doing. So thank you

Edited October 12, 2022 by Finally_Jen

[Je****]

2 minutes ago, phloverman said:

Nothing intelligent to say so resorts to insults. You'll be calling me a racist transphobic islamaphobe misogynist nazi next.

Its not insults. Its my opinion

[Deleted Member]

4 minutes ago, Finally_Jen said:

Its not insults. Its my opinion

I've no hatred. You are entitled to your asshole.

[Deleted Member]

The bait and switch post got me for a second 😂

[kage]

5 hours ago, Leonbukvan1 said:

Please don't talk about philosophy of language unless you can provide articles for your arguments. Language and communication (and by extension meaning of proper names is much more complex than subjective ). For some reason everyone thinks that their philosophical opinions hold any value even though they're not a trained philosopher in a specific field.

In short one cannot have opinion unless they from others? my position is simply one of rationality and linguistics, if words are subjective and meaning vary from person to person then words becomes meaningless, this position is objectively true, the very question she raises makes this evident as the words can mean anything to anyone is it's impossible to have a discussion on the subject as it becomes the question on whose definition is right , I have always addressed people how they want to be addressed am a classical liberal in short people should live how they want to live.... But will always be a defender of objectivity and rationality