Kink college, a diploma in choking.

[PhantomFlogger]

Good morning all, I posed this question quite a few years back on here with quite the negative response "should there be a recognised BDSM certification system"?

My thinking was there is an inherent danger in what we do, especially with people we may only have known for short periods. We all have something quite powerful in common and most of us will rush into play to get that fix we so very much desire. So, how do we know our partner of choice is safe? We should all be vetting our partners, and currently we have a few options such as talking to them, being part of an active community usually helps find the bad apples and that is pretty much it with a few nuances.

The issues i find is most people in need of guidance dont have the confidence to join munches, events or dungeons to learn safety and skills, and those who are overly confident or new feel it is beneath them or embarrassing to admit they are inexperienced or have gaps in their knowledge. I mean, we all love BDSM here right? But how many of us know the laws around it, have read books and gone to classes before tying someone up and hitting them? And this isnt just for the safety of others, you could be in a lot of trouble if something goes wrong.

So, what if there were a centralised qualification system, one recognised by the community and searchable by others? I know, lame and extra work, but think about it, how many people get into play they are not knowledgeable on? How many times have you met someone and they have told you they are a master in rope play but turned out they dont know their shibari from their macarme?

I know its probably an extra expense on top of what is already an expensive lifestyle, but there is, for me, a huge value in 1, knowing your partner knows what they are doing/ you know what they are doing, and 2, comfort that you, yourself know enough to not disappoint or harm another.

Like i said, i got a lot of push back when i asked this years ago, many mocked me for the idea. It made me wonder why though. Could they be insecure that they will be exposed that they are, infact not a professional Dominatrix or master of many slaves, maybe the idea of having to prove your experience limits the partners who want to play with a newbie. There are a lot of people out there that think pulling some hair and slapping an arse makes them a certified Dominant who can take on many submissives and train them. *insert eye roll*

I felt that having to prove your experience would not only weed out the liars and unsafe players, but also encourage us to enrol on more classes and expand our knowledge with teachers with our interests in mind.

Imagine having little digital badges you can put on any profile that have your certificate number on it and is traceable to the exam board you received it from. These can be online classes in rope play, pressure points and safety, or spanking, breath play and safe words. Even a kink 101 class that explains the law and how to act.

 

Personally, i think it would say a lot about someone if they didnt want to improve or show evidence of experience.

I enjoy doing classes and going to events, and even sharing knowledge at munches. But i also think others would see your "badges" and it would reassure them as well as be a great conversation starter.

Not long after i wrote this post, this site started talking about classes and kink university. And im so happy to see how much they offer on their classes. But, can we not normalise this, make it a sign of dedication and willingness to improve. There will be many who reject the idea because they are already well educated, but why cant these people be the teachers, get paid for it and our community benefits from it.

So, what do you all say? Am i still crazy, or does a honours in shibari from Crow Academy sound a bit sexy?

 

Edited July 7 by PhantomFlogger
Spelling and grammar corrections

[Ch****]

Doesn’t sound crazy at all, but I think the solution is quite complex

[TheBookCollector]

The problem is that there is no set standard, and who accredits the teachers and ensures they are safe? What experience should they have? How do you decide someone is safe to do breath play in a classroom, compared to outside.

There are those that will play safe in a classroom but once they have the 'i am safe certificate' use it to lure people.

[Sp****]

Brilliant idea.

[Aura-9999]

Since you are asking for opinions, I think you should think less kink academy and more kink scouts as a structure.

[Cu****]

And then be inspected and reported on, by OFSTED (a UK organisation, “Office for Standards in Education”) every three years to show your planning, your qualification, competence, effectiveness in providing individual learning outcomes, interviewing and reporting on any individual who has used your service, and what they thought of you, then you being graded, “outstanding”, “good”, “requires improvement”, “inadequate”. The report would be published, in the public domain for anyone to read and appear in the local media. You could be listed in a league table, possibly by County, so that anyone can see your real name in a directory, with contact details, address, phone number, as and when they might want to choose someone to enlist their service. You would need to be DBS checked (Disclosure and Barring Service) to reveal potential previous criminal convictions. This idea, would then possibly preclude anyone in a professional career, as an employer might very well have worries over the individual’s suitability to represent their company…or school, college, or University. Then equipment would require Health and Safety inspection, to be certain that it met rigorous standards, or you would have to buy only the recommended, suitably tested equipment. It may preclude many married people, as some spouses, who were not directly aware of what their partner’s were getting up to, would suddenly find out.

Whilst it might all be a good idea, it would be hugely expensive…three year degree course, at £27000…and require admission qualifications, interviews to assess possible suitable candidates to access the course, in the first place, which would necessarily need to include physiology, resuscitation techniques, how to read technical equipmentand, and the whole range of knowledge, skills and techniques for every aspect of the whole subject. You’d maybe qualify as a paramedic, as a consequence of the studies, research, essays, practical activities, and pay for an annual registration fee to a professional body. Politically and controversially, the general public would be up in arms about a government spending public money, on what they would see as outlandish projects.

By standardising, and there being a massive personal financial contribution from the individual, to achieve recognition of their hard work and knowledge, that person would want to receive some form of payment from anyone wanting their service. Does this then become an income? If so, it then becomes taxable and appears on your tax return. What happens if you move Countries, and wish to continue to provide your service?

I’m sure that others will see even more reasons for not going down such a prescribed route, in the name of advancing bdsm. Seems like a great deal of work, to receive an accredited, illuminated badge on your profile, which would be open to being ripped and scammed.

[Aura-9999]

Cumbria's comment perfectly illustrates why I said less academy and more scouts. While there's a whole lot of problems with the scouts, the informal structure of teaching those less experienced as you yourself are also still learning and a heavy emphasis on a code of conduct would work really well to get some sort of recognition of skill going. And the different levels would make it clear to everyone how much experience each member has.

Also, I bet Kink Camp would be pretty popular. With fetish huts and friendly competitions between groups lol.

[Sp****]

Think less professional certification and more driver’s license type paradigm. Just like driver’s licenses, you can’t always account for people’s poor/dangerous driving habits after they get their license, but at least the person would have been given a proper instruction of the “rules of the road” and any “law breaking” would be caused by informed decision making and not simple ignorance.

[TheBookCollector]

20 minutes ago, Spiral66 said:

Think less professional certification and more driver’s license type paradigm. Just like driver’s licenses, you can’t always account for people’s poor/dangerous driving habits after they get their license, but at least the person would have been given a proper instruction of the “rules of the road” and any “law breaking” would be caused by informed decision making and not simple ignorance.

But who decides what is the proper instruction. As driving tests vary between counties.
.
How do you ensure the teacher knows what hes doing, does he need acreditation, if so from who? Friends who take a back hander to back him?
.
Who sets the standards for these tests. What if someone gets a friend to do the test but gets the certificate.
.
How would you stop them being faked.
.

[4R****]

Awesome idea but a recipe for disaster IMO

[Aura-9999]

23 minutes ago, TheBookCollector said:

But who decides what is the proper instruction. As driving tests vary between counties.
.
How do you ensure the teacher knows what hes doing, does he need acreditation, if so from who? Friends who take a back hander to back him?
.
Who sets the standards for these tests. What if someone gets a friend to do the test but gets the certificate.
.
How would you stop them being faked.
.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

18 centuries later, we still don't have a good answer to that. 

The truth is, you don't. As long as there's power there will be abuse of power. But I don't think it's a strong enough argument to dismiss the idea. Just like drivers licenses, even with fakes, rule breakers and reckless behavior, the streets are safer with them than without them.

[Sp****]

32 minutes ago, TheBookCollector said:

But who decides what is the proper instruction. As driving tests vary between counties.
.
How do you ensure the teacher knows what hes doing, does he need acreditation, if so from who? Friends who take a back hander to back him?
.
Who sets the standards for these tests. What if someone gets a friend to do the test but gets the certificate.
.
How would you stop them being faked.
.

There are basic tenets that should be common for *all* Dominants regardless of what side of the road they drive on. Things like consent, play safety, safeword protocol etc.

Those who are “instructing” should have to meet certain criteria, of course. Experience, and self education would be paramount in this case.

Fraud and Identity theft is always a concern and I’m not sure you could fully circumvent it, much as in all other forms of licensing.

I’m sure people much smarter than I could ponder the robustness of such a system and provide solutions. My point is that something like this would immediately weed out the 95% of “Dominants” online who don’t know (and don’t care to know) about the fundamentals of the lifestyle as a practical entity.

You want to put fuzzy handcuffs on your partner and have sex with them, go ahead…fill your boots. BUT when you start indulging in acts that can jeopardize the existence of another human being, then I say that I’d at LEAST like to know the person I’m putting my trust in has done even at the bare minimum, something to warrant it.

[ey****]

standardisation is a big issue, given there's a lot people disagree with

equally, of course, plenty of people pass their driving test but still then drink and drive.  

I don't hate the idea - in fact, to be honest, a lot is closer to what things were like in some communities a long time ago

but any form of accessible database for people to search your name has wider issues anyway

[Sp****]

8 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

standardisation is a big issue, given there's a lot people disagree with

equally, of course, plenty of people pass their driving test but still then drink and drive.  

I don't hate the idea - in fact, to be honest, a lot is closer to what things were like in some communities a long time ago

but any form of accessible database for people to search your name has wider issues anyway

Ashley Madison would agree with you. Lol. Anytime you sign up for any kink/sex based social media, you are taking the chance of getting doxxed by someone who is talented and motivated enough. Yes Fet mods, even this one too.

Paper records would probably be a way to minimize risk, however. Just sayin’.

[ey****]

this is just it; I know this has potential to get sidetracked but whenever someone's answer to "fakes and scammers" is "verify everyone" it's like... ok.. but, yeah. Ashley Maddison 

[QXX666]

It’s not a bad idea as such….but :
As mentioned the “professors” will need to prove their knowledges etc..
How do you pass the exams and if it’s online how do you know people won’t cheat?
Bad apples will get their badges too and will be accredited safe.
Having the honour badge on paper won’t make it experienced type of Dom. Knowledge yes but in practice it’s all different.
Even experienced Dom make mistakes, accident happened regardless if you are experienced or not. Depending the sessions, risky or dangerous, it’s a good thing to have knowledge but without practices it’s never 100% safe.
I recently read a slapping incident going to far and the person had damaged ear drums. It’s a simple kinky play but without knowing how to do it, kinksters put themselves in shitty situation.

There are already lots of course online or events regarding ropes, spanking, whips etc… it’s up to people to make the effort.
And remember diploma or not if someone file a complain against you it will be the same result…prison! Bdsm is almost illegal or not recognised as a sane practice in most countries…

[Sp****]

37 minutes ago, QXX666 said:

It’s not a bad idea as such….but :
As mentioned the “professors” will need to prove their knowledges etc..
How do you pass the exams and if it’s online how do you know people won’t cheat?
Bad apples will get their badges too and will be accredited safe.
Having the honour badge on paper won’t make it experienced type of Dom. Knowledge yes but in practice it’s all different.
Even experienced Dom make mistakes, accident happened regardless if you are experienced or not. Depending the sessions, risky or dangerous, it’s a good thing to have knowledge but without practices it’s never 100% safe.
I recently read a slapping incident going to far and the person had damaged ear drums. It’s a simple kinky play but without knowing how to do it, kinksters put themselves in shitty situation.

There are already lots of course online or events regarding ropes, spanking, whips etc… it’s up to people to make the effort.
And remember diploma or not if someone file a complain against you it will be the same result…prison! Bdsm is almost illegal or not recognised as a sane practice in most countries…

Accidents and mistakes would be covered in the chapter on RACK. There is an assumption of risk when engaging in any BDSM activities. As long as all parties are “ Risk Aware and Consenting” then it would not and should not be held against the Dom.

Once again. Think of a drivers license. Beginner drivers are often TERRIBLE, but they are at least given the tools and rules to let their experience make them better drivers the more they drive.

[im****]

I love this. There has been many times I’ve chatted with someone hoping to find a Dom, and luckily, I found and realized that they were simply looking to rough fuck someone. It is very vulnerable, especially as the one being tied down, to put ourselves out there and trust folks we don’t truly know their background and expertise. And I believe everyone has to grow and learn from somewhere, as did I 11 years ago. But I’m worried about the newbies who don’t have the radar and red flag system I do from my lived experience.

[ey****]

5 hours ago, Spiral66 said:

Once again. Think of a drivers license. Beginner drivers are often TERRIBLE, but they are at least given the tools and rules to let their experience make them better drivers the more they drive.

the thing is... you can't hire or buy a car without a license.  you can't get insurance without a license.  if you otherwise borrow a car without a license then it's going to blow you very quickly if you can't drive.

And, if you are stopped and produce a fake license, this can be very easily checked with the DVLA (or equivalent) 

the overwhelming people who practice kink do so privately.  if you start limiting people's ability to buy floggers to those who have a license, then as well as being a very easy black market, it's not like people can't make their own. It's not like other easily purchasable items can't be used instead 

And again, if someone does ask to see papers - then these are very easy to fake without a central database and we know the issues with a central database.

 

the reality of course is that YOU the individual, need to do somewhat to learn about the activities you wish to partake in regardless of if you are giving or receiving.  if your partner then clearly doesn't know what they're doing, you can stop them and work out how to proceed.  However this is often easily said than done.

 

But like a driving license. There are plenty of people who've passed their test but still drink drive, who still run red lights, so on and they only get points on their license if they're caught.   Someone playing privately isn't going to get caught.

 

Hell.

It could be worse.

"I was playing with Sir Domly Dom and I used my safeword and he didn't stop"

"Well, we've checked our records and he passed all of his kink exams so it's just your word I'm afraid - he has a certificate saying he's an upstanding citizen" 

[Sp****]

3 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

the thing is... you can't hire or buy a car without a license.  you can't get insurance without a license.  if you otherwise borrow a car without a license then it's going to blow you very quickly if you can't drive.

And, if you are stopped and produce a fake license, this can be very easily checked with the DVLA (or equivalent) 

the overwhelming people who practice kink do so privately.  if you start limiting people's ability to buy floggers to those who have a license, then as well as being a very easy black market, it's not like people can't make their own. It's not like other easily purchasable items can't be used instead 

And again, if someone does ask to see papers - then these are very easy to fake without a central database and we know the issues with a central database.

 

the reality of course is that YOU the individual, need to do somewhat to learn about the activities you wish to partake in regardless of if you are giving or receiving.  if your partner then clearly doesn't know what they're doing, you can stop them and work out how to proceed.  However this is often easily said than done.

 

But like a driving license. There are plenty of people who've passed their test but still drink drive, who still run red lights, so on and they only get points on their license if they're caught.   Someone playing privately isn't going to get caught.

 

Hell.

It could be worse.

"I was playing with Sir Domly Dom and I used my safeword and he didn't stop"

"Well, we've checked our records and he passed all of his kink exams so it's just your word I'm afraid - he has a certificate saying he's an upstanding citizen" 

I’m pretty sure something as far-reaching and heavy-handed as prohibition to buy bdsm equipment based on certification would be not feasible let alone practical. All that it would be would be a VOLUNTARY verifiable list of Dominants who have been instructed in (and at time of certification shown proficiency in) basic bdsm safety, technique, and protocols. This would absolutely not be a “free pass” for a Dominant and would not replace the proper vetting protocol that should occur. It would just perhaps give submissives a leg up on trust, seeing a prospective Dom that took the time and effort to educate themselves on things rather than someone who is most likely out for their own gains.

If you’re the type of person, who would educate themselves on bdsm safety/protocols, to get “certified” to lure submissives so you could then ignore those protocols and violate consent/abuse someone else, then you are probably a psychopath and no amount of intervention or regulation will keep a community safe from you.

[4R****]

 

3 hours ago, Spiral66 said:

All that it would be would be a VOLUNTARY verifiable list of Dominants who have been instructed in (and at time of certification shown proficiency in) basic bdsm safety, technique, and protocols.

is "certified Dominants" really the right thing?  Not everyone who engages in Kinky Play is a Dominant, and not all Dominants engage in Kinky play. There is more danger in the physical act than there is in the psychological concept of Domination. So a list of "TOPS" would be closer to the mark so that bottoms knows when they are being strung up by their ankles they are in safe hands. 

There are dangers from the psycollogical side too with mental injury or abuise and the effects that come with that. 

But there is a fundemental flaw with having a "certified" list for either. Much of what we do is illegal - even if it's consensual. Even a Dominant punishing their submissive for not doing as they are told can be seen as coersive control. Any kind of impact play is physical assault. Bondage or restraints is taking someone's liberty. etc etc. By creating a list or having certification as has been suggested you are effectively creating a database for law enforcement to begin prosecuting people on the basis that to have been certified, they most have experience and to have experience they must have carried out one or more of the acts. 

This is something that's been discussed on and off for many, many years. I said it before and I'll say it again - it's a great idea, but it's a recipe for disaster.

[Deleted Member]

Not sure what the question was but my opinion .... If there was kiss and tell .. Boy George a good reference point then asshole to the teller
As a submissive I hold 50% of the liability ..Noone has been forced to do anything they didn't want to. Bdsm should be seen in law as exactly what it is two people enjoying an extremely hedonistic relationship

[ey****]

the more I kinda think

I've seen problems in the past which people have blamed on poor vetting, either by an individual, an event, or whatever.

and someone has talked up some 'olden times' system of intense vetting, of rules that had to be followed "you can't use this equipment unless it's been use on you", "everyone has been through training" whatever - and the idea in itself is not new, this is just old ideas repackaged

and while there was a lot of good about this.  it created a lot of false security and also became a cover for abuse from some.  

 

But still.  Right now workshops exist. Online training exists.  Anyone can attend these on a voluntuntarily.  Some might even give a certificate of attendance.

But a lot of people learn on one on one basis rather than any form of structural class with exam.

[ey****]

On another hand.

I don't hate the idea

But

who is standardising it?  who is organising it? who is taking responsibility for it? who is funding it? Particularly the initialisation ?