So you want to meet a Domme

[Cimky]

**THIS IS NOT MY OWN WRITING BUT SOMETHING I COULD NOT SAY ANY BETTER THIS THIS**
Introduction

I've written this page for two reasons; you're going to find it a) useful and b) the advice contained within it should help stop you from looking like an idiot. 
You'll have got the URL for this page from someone, somewhere, sometime, in some chat room, and you've been given it because you've asked about meeting a Domme, or otherwise indicated that you'd like to submit to a woman. You may have done it politely, you may have made a fool of yourself - I have no way of knowing. 
Consequently, don't take it that personally - I don't know who you are, or the circumstances under which you've arrived here. The chances are however that you are in danger of making yourself look stupid, or that you're pestering women in an IRC chat room, so please spend the few moments it takes to read this page - it will be worth it.
Before we move on to the information itself, let's make one thing perfectly crystal clear: I am not a Domme. I am not even a woman. Do NOT pm me thinking that I am, because I'm not. I'm also NOT looking for male submissives anyway, so it's a total waste of both your time and mine, ok?
Well, having got that little, (but important) point out of the way, let's carry on, shall we. The following is a list of things that you might want to bear in mind.
There are lots of male submissives. You are not the only male submissive in the world. In fact, within the BDSM scene, you're just about the lowest of the low. 
Sorry if that sounds depressing, but it's the truth, and you might as well hear it from me in a polite form, instead of from someone else in a chat room who is rather less than polite. Simply coming into a chat room and telling people that you're a male submissive isn't going to mean a thing. Quite frankly, we don't care. 
Worse still is telling people that you're a male submissive, and which lucky mistress would like you as their slave. They will NOT be interested. 
Most likely they already have a submissive, and they're probably not looking for another one. So, to really hammer the point home:
 THIS APPROACH WILL NOT WORK!

There are not that many Dommes.

The pecking order goes a bit like this - at the top of the heap are female submissives. They are rare, delightful creatures, few and far between. 
Next down come Dommes. You don't tend to get an awful lot of those either.
Next in the order are Doms. There are quite a lot of us, believe me. Finally, we get to the largest group of all, the male submissive.
Consequently, don't treat all Dommes as the same. If you've read this far, you may be a tad pissed off with me for calling you a male submissive. 
Just think how much more annoying it is for a Domme to exist in your mind as nothing more than a woman who may want a submissive. 
You are denying her everything about her, except her sex and the fact that she can tell you what to do. Believe me, this is a really bad idea - the level of interest in you will be zero. If it's not zero it's almost certainly because she thinks you're a joke. 
(Of course, it's entirely possible that's what you get off on, but we'll assume that you do actually want a Domme for all the right reasons, ok?)

Dommes do not like to be pestered.

In fact, no one likes to be pestered. In fact, no one likes people who whine. God knows that we see enough male submissives who do. 
Ensure that you do not fall into that category. Actually, it's probably too late, because that's one of the reasons that someone may have pointed out this web page to you. So make sure you stop that behavior right now!

Female submissives are not Dommes in disguise.

You may be tempted to talk to a female submissive in the hopes of persuading her that actually, she's really a Domme and hasn't met the right submissive male yet. Trust me when I tell you that every female sub has heard every line, at least ten times. 
THIS WILL NOT WORK!
 A female sub doesn't have to be anything other than a female submissive - in terms of rarity value, they're at the top as it is. 
Believe me - if a female submissive wanted to be a Domme, she'd be one. Trying to persuade her that she is will do nothing except annoy her. 
It's a really bad idea to annoy a female submissive; they have ways and means that are beyond the understanding of anyone else, and their revenge will be nothing you'd want to experience. By all means talk to them - hell, talk to all of us! But please don't try and get her to Domme you.

The positive steps you should take.
Be polite when entering a channel.
This is of course always good manners for anyone. Politeness is a virtue. Do not barge into a channel and tell everyone your sex, age, location, and your particular fetish. We don't care. If we take any notice of this at all it's going to be 'oh, it's an idiot. Ignore them'. which is just what you don't want to happen. 
You will find that you get on a lot better if you come in, say 'hi', and perhaps explain that you're new to the room. 
DO NOT IMMEDIATELY START PM'ING DOMMES. 

They won't be interested.

It is much better to sit quietly for a while, listening to conversations getting to know people individually first, and allowing them to get to know you.
Demonstrate why you're different.
Before looking for a Domme, you need to decide for yourself what makes you different. If you've taken the trouble to sit in a channel and slowly get involved with it, at some point, someone will ask you about yourself. This is a key moment in your search for a Domme, so use it wisely. Here are some of the classic errors that are made at this point:

Your comment: Our thoughts:

I'm very submissive. Big deal, so are all submissives.
I do exactly what I'm told. Well yes.. and?
I'll do anything for the right Mistress. This one is desperate!
I'm excellent at pleasuring my Mistress Oh, ok... he's desperate for a fuck.
I'm rich with my own Penthouse suite. He's a desperate liar.
I'm available for the right Domme! Totally clueless and arrogant.
I'm 23, very fit, and highly intelligent. Still totally clueless and stupid.
I'm looking for a Domme! You're a male sub, of course, you are.

None of those approaches will work. We see it every night. What makes much more sense is to assume that we know you're submissive, that you'll do as you're told, and all that jazz. So don't tell us, move swiftly onto something about you that's interesting. 
What hobbies do you have? 
What skills have you got? 
What makes you an interesting human being? 
The fact that you're a sub isn't interesting. We know that already. There are very interesting male submissives - I know lots of them, as do the rest of us. 
But they are interesting because they are people who happen to be submissive. Do you see the difference? I really hope so!

Tell us why you're different and leave it.

Don't continue wittering on about it. If people are interested, they'll ask you about it. If they do, congratulations, you've moved onto the next stage in your search. 

FINDING A DOMME IS A LONG-TERM PROCESS - IT WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.
If you come into a chat room expecting to find a Domme who will come around and visit you the same evening or the next day to beat you senseless, just leave the room right now and go to #bdsm_stupidly_optomistic. After all - why should a Domme want to? She's probably already got a sub she can phone up and say 'drive over here now, I am in the mood to whack you'. So just leave it. Don't push it, and don't expect anything to happen tonight. Or tomorrow night. Or this week. Or probably this month. I'm really sorry - I know that you're desperate - it's clear for all to see, and there's nothing that is more off-putting than a desperate submissive. It's not pretty and it's not attractive.
Visit the chatroom again. And again.
But visit it as a PERSON. Do not visit as a male submissive desperate for a Domme. We'll just get totally pissed off with you. However, if you are an interesting and fun person to chat to, you'll be warmly welcomed. Do this for long enough, and at some point, a Domme will turn her eye towards you. 
(Probably both eyes in fact. If she does just turn one eye towards you, be slightly worried). 
And when you visit, come to the chatroom to meet people. Don't come with the express requirement to meet the Domme of your dreams. She probably doesn't exist, and if she does, she's the one who is married to me, ok? Treat all of us Dommes, Doms, submissives just like normal real-life people because you know what? That's exactly what we are. No one likes being put in a pigeonhole. You don't like me thinking of you as 'just another male submissive', and quite frankly, 
I don't blame you. If you don't like it, why would we want to be pigeonholed either?
When a Domme talks to you.
Obviously, be polite. We all like politeness. Dommes usually insist on it. However, don't grovel, since we don't like that. Most Dommes don't like it. Remember, that she is talking to you because she finds you interesting - the fact that you're a submissive is taken for granted, so you need to make sure that you think in those terms as well. Do not immediately launch into a sales pitch about how you're the best sub she'll ever meet. She won't believe you and she'll lose interest within seconds. Of course, if she asks what you like doing as a submissive, tell her! DO NOT SAY 'ANYTHING YOU WANT MISTRESS'. 
This immediately puts you into the category of a sad desperate loser. Tell her what you do like doing, and what you don't like doing. 
Be clear about this, since she's going to find out at some point, and you might as well be upfront about it - it'll save your time and hers.

What to do if a Domme expresses an interest.
At that point, you're on your own mate! If however, this little page has helped, do feel free to send me a tenner!

[ge****]

Haven't read all of it but what I did read is spot on - the sad thing is that this has been around since the dawn of the Internet (if mentions of IRC are anything to go by) and yet is still relevant 20 odd years later.

[Ki****]

Sometimes I feel that stuff like this should be mandatory reading. So many embarrassing and stupid mistakes could be avoided if people found the resources they need. (of course, knowing where yo find the resources can be half the process)

[FearlessKitten]

I've seen these kind of posts so many times, and they can be okay for newcomers that are willing to learn, but the wider audience this post is targeting (the clowns that repeatedly embarass themselves) are unfortunately the kind of people to not take the time to read a lengthy post like this.
And to be honest, while there's plenty good to this post, I also see plenty that I wouldn't say is accurate or even correct.
I don't like to put value on a group of people, I prefer to look at each person as an individual, but if one were to assign value to a group of people it should probably be valued based on supply and demand. There's many more sub women than there are dom women, making the Domme more rare, and also just as many sub men looking for a domme as what there are Dom men looking for a sub woman, so how one could say a female sub is above a female Dom in a pecking order is beyond me 🤷🏻‍♂️
The do not DM part isn't accurate either. There's nothing wrong with sliding into ones messages if done in a respectable way. Like...
don't immediately beg,
don't message someone who's in a relationship if their profile says on here for "networking" or "friends".
As a man, don't message a woman who's stating only interested in women.
Don't use generic copy paste text, try to make the message custom to the profile you're messaging, show that you've actually read and understood the profile, and would be interested in getting to know more about that person.

There's more in the post that I don't 100% agree with, but this reply is already long enough! Besides people here would probably rather see sheep just following the masses than someone speaking out about something that's wrong or misguided 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Ki****]

17 minutes ago, FearlessKitten said:

I've seen these kind of posts so many times, and they can be okay for newcomers that are willing to learn, but the wider audience this post is targeting (the clowns that repeatedly embarass themselves) are unfortunately the kind of people to not take the time to read a lengthy post like this.
And to be honest, while there's plenty good to this post, I also see plenty that I wouldn't say is accurate or even correct.
I don't like to put value on a group of people, I prefer to look at each person as an individual, but if one were to assign value to a group of people it should probably be valued based on supply and demand. There's many more sub women than there are dom women, making the Domme more rare, and also just as many sub men looking for a domme as what there are Dom men looking for a sub woman, so how one could say a female sub is above a female Dom in a pecking order is beyond me 🤷🏻‍♂️
The do not DM part isn't accurate either. There's nothing wrong with sliding into ones messages if done in a respectable way. Like...
don't immediately beg,
don't message someone who's in a relationship if their profile says on here for "networking" or "friends".
As a man, don't message a woman who's stating only interested in women.
Don't use generic copy paste text, try to make the message custom to the profile you're messaging, show that you've actually read and understood the profile, and would be interested in getting to know more about that person.

There's more in the post that I don't 100% agree with, but this reply is already long enough! Besides people here would probably rather see sheep just following the masses than someone speaking out about something that's wrong or misguided 🤷🏻‍♂️

There's a lot I don't agree with in this post. Many of which you've highlighted. And much like you've stated, most of the people a post like this would most help either don't care or don't know that they should be looking at getting information and learning instead of just 'doing'.
I think a big problem might be to do with titles themselves. They're incredibly useful for quickly describing the roles you are, but they also make it incredibly easy for the ill-informed to generalise. As a rule of thumb, generalising doesn't help as everyone is different despite potentially playing the same role.
Unfortunately, I don't have the ultimate answer to this conundrum and I doubt one exists.

[FearlessKitten]

6 minutes ago, KinkyKy said:

There's a lot I don't agree with in this post. Many of which you've highlighted. And much like you've stated, most of the people a post like this would most help either don't care or don't know that they should be looking at getting information and learning instead of just 'doing'.
I think a big problem might be to do with titles themselves. They're incredibly useful for quickly describing the roles you are, but they also make it incredibly easy for the ill-informed to generalise. As a rule of thumb, generalising doesn't help as everyone is different despite potentially playing the same role.
Unfortunately, I don't have the ultimate answer to this conundrum and I doubt one exists.

Yeah well there I believe the answer would be don't generalise lol, but for many that's easier said than done. Titles aside though, it shouldn't be difficult to treat people with respect, and a male sub, who's so called at the bottom of the pecking order, deserves just as much respect as a female Dom, although in many ways it's understandable why some generalise when you have so many male sub doing nothing that's deserving of respect. Respect shouldn't necessarily need to be earned, but it can be easily lost.

[Cimky]

1 hour ago, FearlessKitten said:

I've seen these kind of posts so many times, and they can be okay for newcomers that are willing to learn, but the wider audience this post is targeting (the clowns that repeatedly embarass themselves) are unfortunately the kind of people to not take the time to read a lengthy post like this.
And to be honest, while there's plenty good to this post, I also see plenty that I wouldn't say is accurate or even correct.
I don't like to put value on a group of people, I prefer to look at each person as an individual, but if one were to assign value to a group of people it should probably be valued based on supply and demand. There's many more sub women than there are dom women, making the Domme more rare, and also just as many sub men looking for a domme as what there are Dom men looking for a sub woman, so how one could say a female sub is above a female Dom in a pecking order is beyond me 🤷🏻‍♂️
The do not DM part isn't accurate either. There's nothing wrong with sliding into ones messages if done in a respectable way. Like...
don't immediately beg,
don't message someone who's in a relationship if their profile says on here for "networking" or "friends".
As a man, don't message a woman who's stating only interested in women.
Don't use generic copy paste text, try to make the message custom to the profile you're messaging, show that you've actually read and understood the profile, and would be interested in getting to know more about that person.

There's more in the post that I don't 100% agree with, but this reply is already long enough! Besides people here would probably rather see sheep just following the masses than someone speaking out about something that's wrong or misguided 🤷🏻‍♂️

As I said in the start its not my own words but I do love what it say. Sadly its true the lazy idiots that needs to read it would be to lazy. The DM's rule comes from where I got the piece at 1st its from a online chat room where the main chat room is for basic interactions and you would only go to dm if you and said person both feel like taking the convo private that would not apply on this platform and removing parts of a copied piece would be disrespectful to the writer who has put some time into his work

[FearlessKitten]

6 minutes ago, Cimky said:

The DM's rule comes from where I got the piece at 1st its from a online chat room where the main chat room is for basic interactions and you would only go to dm if you and said person both feel like taking the convo private that would not apply on this platform and removing parts of a copied piece would be disrespectful to the writer who has put some time into his work

Yeah that's fair enough, and true, but since people are reading it on this platform, and don't know where the piece originated from, perhaps ANOTHER disclaimer for that would've been useful lol.

To a certain extent it can be applicable on this platform too though. I think there's plenty here that don't like to be direct messaged while they're in the chat rooms

[ey****]

Sometimes

we accept there are people who don't want to learn and do our best to avoid them.  But having good info available for those WHO DO want to learn, is crucial.  

[Re****]

7 hours ago, gemini_man said:

Haven't read all of it but what I did read is spot on - the sad thing is that this has been around since the dawn of the Internet (if mentions of IRC are anything to go by) and yet is still relevant 20 odd years later.

Really not sure why anyone would comment on a (not that long tbh) post without reading the whole thing.. did you get distracted?

[Re****]

5 hours ago, Cimky said:

As I said in the start its not my own words but I do love what it say. Sadly its true the lazy idiots that needs to read it would be to lazy. The DM's rule comes from where I got the piece at 1st its from a online chat room where the main chat room is for basic interactions and you would only go to dm if you and said person both feel like taking the convo private that would not apply on this platform and removing parts of a copied piece would be disrespectful to the writer who has put some time into his work

Personally, as a Dom with 2 regular subs and a good knowledge of Basic Human Decency, I can see little wrong with this OP. Those nit-picking about ratios are not looking at the core issues. Depends where you live perhaps.. but regardless of geographical variations the core points of Respect and Being Genuine remain. I do agree tho that it’s less likely that the male subs being criticised are going to read this.. but so what? This information deserves to be out there so it can be disseminated by all those with the ability to understand it.

[ge****]

22 minutes ago, a-verynaughtyboy said:

Really not sure why anyone would comment on a (not that long tbh) post without reading the whole thing.. did you get distracted?

Not in the slightest bit - have read similar often enough and know enough to know that I broadly agree with it, as well as being able to make the point that I did - which was more about how long this piece has been out there and yet the same thing is still happening 20 odd years since it was written.

[Cimky]

4 hours ago, gemini_man said:

Not in the slightest bit - have read similar often enough and know enough to know that I broadly agree with it, as well as being able to make the point that I did - which was more about how long this piece has been out there and yet the same thing is still happening 20 odd years since it was written.

The fact that the piece has been around that long just shows a bit of my age. And grumpiness is also part of that same factor. I am half asleep so when I wake up I will go through the hassle of explaining why after so many years this is still valid and why I will continue to post it on every platform I am on (and with my age in consideration its a few)

[ge****]

4 minutes ago, Cimky said:

The fact that the piece has been around that long just shows a bit of my age. And grumpiness is also part of that same factor. I am half asleep so when I wake up I will go through the hassle of explaining why after so many years this is still valid and why I will continue to post it on every platform I am on (and with my age in consideration its a few)

Shows mine too - but please don't go to the hassle of explaining on my account, I get it, and that was my point - that it's actually quite sad that it is still as valid and relevant today as when it was written 20 odd years ago, and still needs to be posted today simply *because* the people it's aimed at haven't learned or evolved in that time.

[Cimky]

O I think they went backwards in some regards

[ge****]

4 minutes ago, Cimky said:

O I think they went backwards in some regards

Indeed or perhaps it's because the platforms available make it seem more prevalent - back in the days when IRC, ICQ and website chat rooms were the hangouts the iritation was more temporary, whereas now with sites and forums such as this with profiles and messaging etc it seems a little more permanent somehow.
.
Either way the point being that nothing has changed for the better in that time.

[Cimky]

Sadly thats true. But hey there has been positives too so we keep going in-between the stacks of fuck boys is a few gems that just need to be noticed

[ge****]

14 minutes ago, Cimky said:

Sadly thats true. But hey there has been positives too so we keep going in-between the stacks of fuck boys is a few gems that just need to be noticed

Absolutely and that is all that you can do - I spent many years on a well known swingers site and the problems were exactly the same there.
.
Trouble is, many (and sadly it is mainly men) see the "sex site" sign and it seems to blind them to all the norms of respect, consideration and general decency.
.
As you say though while it is difficult to see the wood for the trees, the wood is there to be found. (And no that's not a euphemism 🙂)

[Cimky]

I promised a bit more insight in why this piece go with me wherever I go in the online kink community, I am well aware that I am by  no means required to explain myself but let’s for a moment imagine that I care about the bruised egos.

 

The piece is written by a male dominant and as already pointed out a few decades ago, while most of us me included hate being placed in boxes the use of descriptive titles and role tags are for the ease of understanding for the reader, and maybe on another day when I feel like it I will write a piece about my struggles with titles as I know I am not the only one that hates boxes.

To come back to the writer of the original piece, he wrote this from his point of view in his corner of the room and while I myself don’t know him at all whatsoever I have an good idea of his view, he had experience the stupidity from male subs ( and yes I am aware that the fuckboys we talk about here are mainly just that thirsty fuckboys but for ease of reference lets stay with subs) on a daily basis in what I expect to be a chat room in which he played a role as a moderator. And this piece is done with so much sarcasm that it had me laughing at the exaggerations which is in part the plan to lighten the mood around a rather painful topic. As for the ratios yes that will vary from community to community and from view point to view point since the writer is a male Dom I take that he places female subs in a higher ranking as that is what he is after.

Respect and basic human decency seems to walk out the door for a number of fools when they sit behind the safety of a keyboard and they become gutsy in a way they will never do face to face these are some of the fools we are talking about.

The following is my experience as well as what I have seen other woman go through in the kink community, and this is not with every male we encounter but seems to be the way of the majority.

For some unknown reason it seems that when a woman is open minded and open about her sexuality she automatically gets put in a box that label fantasy vending machine – this is one of the biggest frustrations and also the one that separates the wannabe from the real sub fuckboys tends to get very rude and insulting fast if you don’t play ball - pun intended. I open my inbox daily to not only a variety of dick pics but also things like “I worship the ground you walk on and will do anything for you “ , “ if I steal your panty how would you punish me”, “ I see you have a slave but I can do better..” “I will do anything for the right mistress” …… and so on the list is never ending.

And this does not end with female dominants female subs go’s through the same even worse so if they state that they are not in a dynamic.

And to add insult to injury do we also get to deal with the overinflated ego of the young DD’s that thinks every woman wants a daddy or that every female is submissive they just have not met THEM yet and that he can fuck you into submission.

We have to work double as hard for our place in the kinky sun and while you would think with kink that has become more mainstream that people would evolve and become more open-minded the opposite seems to ring true more often than not.

Ps. Just as a foot note I am one of the bitches that makes subs read, research, write and so on so I really don’t give a fuck how long the reading takes if it’s important to you, you will read it if not then slide by.

[Deleted Member]

NL?.

[Cimky]

37 minutes ago, FlixTaurus said:

NL?.

You are one of those that the original article is about so before your question can be answered read the whole feed and see if you would like to make adjustments to your question

[Ae****]

As a person with an opinion - this post, and its original source, is someone's opinion/view on how things and people work/are. Please take it with a pinch of salt because the blind leading the blind is not going to get anyone anywhere useful. Just because a bunch of people agree with its points does not mean its that it's actually a good way to think about yourself, or to look at others - it means there's a certain kind of thinking that's prevalent, and it may be a good idea to check that it's actually *good* thinking. Take care with absorbing/taking on other people's narratives, no matter how confidently they are given. The red flags - if the advice comes in the form of sarcasm, is cold, is essentially unkind and lacking genuine sympathy/understanding, and is framed as "telling it like it is" or "not sugar-coating", then it's not coming from a calm place of support, it's sadly coming from a warped place and you need to take what's useful and leave the rest - and there may be *a lot* to leave.

[ey****]

In a lot of cases though; it's not the blind leading the blind

it's true that a lot comes down to different opinions and interpretations - but I think one of the things often being juggled is that anything like "How do I find a Domme", "a sub", "a unicorn", "someone who will..." there isn't actually a surefire solution.

A lot comes from what either has worked for them, or, the behaviour they'd like to see from potential suitors

There is advice that can increase people's chances and there are warnings to heed of behaviours that will decrease your chances but no solution because you can't control someone else to give the response you want (well, not outside of a consensual existing D/s relationship)

Because of this a lot of advice either ends up being generic or deemed negative "don't do this", "don't do that", "really don't do that" and someone following even the BEST guide still has zero guarantees of the results they want through reasons possibly beyond their control.

In terms of finding a Domme, mind, the simplest advice is that more women would be "into it" if it *actually* benefited them rather than being expected to perform out someone else's fetishes on command.

The other thing of course is while it's easy of course to criticise negative behaviours without offering a surefire solution, it's also really easy to criticise writings for being one way or another without actually offering anything supportive.

Finding someone is hard.  It really is. Adding caveats makes things harder and so "she must be a Domme" and "this is the type of outfits I like" and "I hope our fetishes are compatible" and then add in all the vanilla world compatibilities and it really is something where patience needs to be applied.

Also that all relationships need work, any form of kink based or D/s relationship needs even more work so there has to be some form of demonstration you will put your side of the work in.  And while people say this is about holding men to higher standards (like that is somehow a bad thing?) or making people jump through hoops or so on so forth - it's men who've already signalled they want a certain type of relationship : otherwise they'd just date Sharon from Accounts (poor Sharon) but they don't because she's not a Domme, doesn't match their fantasies and when they went on a date Sharon liked said person but didn't have the time, energy or enthusiasm to learn about kink relationships.  Men are already asking for more from a relationship when they want kink involved. 

[Subdan6749]

When you think about it the essence of this article is just common sense. In a different scenario how do you think this approach would work

”Hi I’m a vanilla, heterosexual, male. I think I’m really good looking and great in bed. How about it then?”

Expected reply “Fantastic! You’re just what I’m looking for let’s go to bed. “

Actual reply. “Get lost weirdo creep!”

 

[Ae****]

There's no request for a surefire solution - but there is a rejection for bad advice. And the source of the advice, e.g. experience, isn't relevant- whether it's good, healthy advice is what counts, both in terms of dating also just for a person's wellbeing. "As a domme I and x, y, z, and this is what you shouldn't do etc etc"... mmm I'd say from that post, the original source, and anyone that sends the link to anyone for their "education", please review whether you'd actually be good for a person to be in a relationship with, as a domme or otherwise because some (like me) would say it really doesn't sound like it.
*Good* criticism is not easy *at all*. Takes a decent amount of thought, and restraint - and the criticism is supportive, all by itself - to any subs reading the original post and it's ideas, who may think it's reality. Cruise is supportive to them. It's push back against something that is hurtful to impressionable people .
Finding someone is indeed hard work. For women and men. They can both be held to far higher standards (this phrase innately drips with condescension... isn't that telling?), but a far better way of doing that is by helping them starting with the idea that they are good and that you would be no different in their shoes - and that any issue on one side is merely the flip side reflection of the issue on the other. No one is better, or smarter, or cleaner. To think otherwise is arrogance. Now, the experience and how it plays out in real life and how it looks is definitely different - but the failings of men are merely those of women - and the failings of both are the fault of neither, but are sourced in nature itself, and are the responsibility of whoever is able to help - male or female.